originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
Ugh Matthew. Please don't even joke with netspeak shorthand. Makes my skin crawl! 
My text messages and e-mails are always as grammatically correct and punctuated as anyhwere else. It may take me a few seconds longer to type "to" instead of "2". But I have NEVER in my life typed "b4" or "w8" or anything remotely similar. OK, sometimes I type "b/c".
I always associate those cutesy short-hands with pre-teen girls. (Of course, then I get texts from my mother or grandmother with them, and my world crumbles.)
Mer
originally posted by Lyssabits
Maybe what's the case is that the overall, average level of literacy has gone up ā more of the population is literate, but that the average literacy of each individual has gone down. This sort of makes sense to me, since those who were taught to read and write were probably those who had a more "classical" education than you get in public schools these days.
The problem with relying on the letters as proof is that those are clearly only going to reflect the population of people who *could* write. (The US Census has the same problem now estimating the actual literacy rate) Those who were completely illiterate would either not send any letters, or would have to find a friend who could, and then you might get some distortion if the letter wasn't written down verbatim, but rather was left to the interpretation of the person doing the writing. I'm sure there were poor people who got a very good education for whatever reasonā¦ but I also suspect that a lot of people could only read and write their own names.
Perhaps it's because you probably wouldn't have been given as broad an education as you are now unless you were wealthy. Everyone would need to learn to read and write, so that might have been taught with extra attention to detail, but I think people were still mostly learning tradeskills at that point. You didn't need to know chemistry if you were a wheelwright.
originally posted by Matthew
Ok, what does everyone think about the sentence 'For passing years that extended to centuries, the men in the crab skiffs that trapped in the estuary, and the caravans bound down the trade-road attested to the fact that the cloth never frayed in the grip of the elements.'
This seems to imply that the Paravians wont be returning for hundreds of years, or this is a redherring and that the new owners of the keep just keep the pennant in place.
As we have seen recently the Paravians have been able to appear in person on several occasions, implying that their absence is entirely by their own choice. I'm beginning to think that the Paravians will never return 
originally posted by Trys
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I don't think the return of the Paravians will necessitate the reoccupation of Alestron by permanent residentsā¦ human or otherwise. It is possible that the citadel could remain sealed well beyond the end of the Wars of Light and Shadow.
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
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It could indicate that the Paravians won't return soon. Or, as someone speculated previously, it could just mean that they have better things to do. Or the Paravians did return, but decided it would be best to keep it under seal.
Mer
originally posted by Susan C
Janny,
I admit I just finished my first reading. You are brilliant. This book is superb-it moved me beyond words. This book was filled with so many OMG momemts. I am now reading it again. Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you.
Susan
originally posted by Clansman
Finally, I can post here. I finished last weekend. Took me over two months of stealing an hour here and there, but I finished. I have decided that my life is too busy if I can't make time to read a book this good in a couple of weeks. What a treat! Janny, you undersold this book with your pre-realease comments. Unlike other authors, your work grows, instead of re-hashing the same old characters and events. It changes, and the tapestry grows more rich and real with each addition.
I stand in awe of your amazing vision, and incredible talent. You are truly blessed with ample quantities of both.
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What strikes me most about this book, aside from its sheer amazing brilliance, is the redemption that we saw. Arithon is totally redeemed from Desh-Thiere. Lysaer is partially redeemed to where Arithon was (I think) way back at the end of CotMW. Arithon and Elaira were redeemed as a couple so that they could express their love to each other. Fionn Areth was redeemed at the end of his life with a bit of understanding (the poor sod). The s'Brydions were redeemed, albeit not in the way that they wanted, but rather as Arithon asked them to be back in TK. Sethvir, Asandir and Davien were redeemed. So was Isfarenn (sp?).
Even the irredeemable Dakar was redeemed. He has grown up an awful lot since being tied to Arithon in SoM.
To me, the major theme of the book was redemption/salvation, all of which stemmed from GRACE. Grace cannot taken or earned. It is simply given, when one humbles oneself enough to ask.
It is probably easier for me to pick out what I didn't like rather than what I did like, because the former list is so very short, and the latter so bloody long! Also, what I didn't like is more like a list of impatience, with those parts of my curiosity that were not satisfied.
For instance, the sales pitch of the publisher was that the Koriathain plot would be fully revealed. I didn't really see much new there, but more fleshed out. No real surprises, as the Twisted Sisters simply showed how ruthlessly twisted they have become. Morriel/Selidie is simply gettting more and more insane. So I found this aspect slightly disappointing, but that is not Janny's fault.
Also, what was the deal between Davien and Seshkro-whatever-the-rest-of-her-name-was-schiel (sorry, don't have the book with me to spell it right, let alone pronounce it!). Yes, he got his body back, but what was she getting? An education on what is "not dragon"? Needs more detail, which I just know is forthcoming in the next Arc.
The rousing of the Beidar was really neat. I wonder what the source of enmity is between them and the Koriathain, besides the obvious evil-minded corruption of the latter. The Koraithain seem to have been much more benevolent in the past. Their current means seem a far cry from their ways back in The Sundering Star. Also, there did not appear to be that kind of enmity back then, as there is now. Again, this is likely to be explained in the next Arc.
So, my complaints, if they could be called that, are simply impatience. I want more, and SF was so beautifully packed with wonderful things, I can't really complain about anything.
I must go back to FP and come back with my thoughts on Fionn Areth's demise. Wasn't Elaira to make some kind of choice? I'll be backā¦
originally posted by Susan C
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Clansman: After reading SF twice, I went back and read Sundering Star again. The Beidar were just one clan among a larger tribe on the planet. After, the Koriani -Jessian- witnessed the saving of the planet Scathic and after the Beidar vouched safed her, the Beidar clan was given the task of insuring any knowledge the Koriani gained from the people would not be used wrongly and to make things right. Thus, I assume that the majority of the tribe of which the Beidar belonged did not come to Athera and the Beidar are only there because of the Koriani. Also, in SF it is stated that it was knowledge originally obtained by the Koriani and twisted by others that lead to the use of possession through necromancy.
The tribes people of Scathic had use of magic, but I wonder because of the special properties on Athera if the Beidar are even more powerful than they were on Scathic.
originally posted by Julie
I thought the same after reading Sundering Star. The Beidar magic is very powerful, but I think they have not reigned in the Koriathain or necromancers because their task on Athera is to see a prophecy fullfilled. Namely Mother Night's son - Arithon. Its interesting that so many of Ath's Adepts are desert people. Were Ath's ADepts originally an offshoot from the Beidar who originally found refuge on Athera?
originally posted by Clansman
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It seems to me that the Koriani have fallen far from the benevolent organization that they appeared to be in Sundering Star. In that story, they were trying to save a unique element of human society that was threatened with annihilation. Now, Morriel/Selidie doesn't care who she kills to get humanity back to the stars.
Why? Humanity on Athera has proved that the self-same idiocy that led to interstellar warfare and obliteration (and created the Mistwraith???), has continued on Athera. The Koriani have even abetted this behaviour (see Parrien and his crew).
I assume that the rest of the tribe is still on Scathic? Are there little pockets of humanity scattered throughout the stars, or were they all wiped out? From reading Sundering Star, it would appear to me to be difficult to get rid of all of humanity. Mind you, the F7 were away from humanity for a long time before the refugees sought sanctuary on Athera.
The Dragon to me is the most intriguing development. Why not get rid of the other grimwards, unless getting rid of Scarpdale was done at a massive risk? It would appear to be in keeping with what the Dragons demanded of the F7. Why not get rid of the Khadrim in the Sorcerer's Preserve? and the Meth-monsters. Perhaps it is precisely the cooperation between Sheshkroschiel (sp?) and the F7 that will allow the sorcerer's to complete their work?
My question is, where did Sheshkroschiel come from?
Arc IV is going to be even more mind-blowing than SF. I just know it.
originally posted by Hunter
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But, Clansman, the key question is just WHY the Koriathain had interest in the Biedar. I very much doubt it had anything to do with saving a few poor lost soulsā¦ if the Biedar were a tribe of cannibals with no saving graces or magic, I doubt the Koriathain would have cared and would have let them perishā¦ after all, many millions of others perished with the benefit of a Koriani salvation. The great irony of course is that the Biedar didn't need any saving by anyone, let alone the meddling Koriani.
My understanding was that Davien and his "pet" were going off to settle the other grimwards to ease those stressed from Sethvir. The Scarpdale grimward was first to salvage because Asandir was in it and he was perhaps worthy of saving!
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I guess the bargain between Seshkrozchiel and Davien is never explicitly spelled out. Here's what I can see having come out of it based on SF:
- Davien regains a corporate status and can use Seshy's powers (obviously "for Davien")
- The destruction of the dragon skulls in Avenor (obviously "for Seshy")
- Seshy and Davien settle the grimwards (at first I interpreted this as "for Davien" too, but then realized it goes both ways ā maybe Seshy wanted to settle these, but for some reason, could not do it without Davien's alien perspective? Davien could have slyly bargained this in an "only if you insist" kind of way, while secretly realizing it would help the Fellowship)
- Seshy gets to experience Davien's perspective ("for Seshy", but for unexplained reasons)
Anything else?
originally posted by Clansman
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Hunter:
The impression that I got from Sundering Star was that the Koriathain were more focussed on the humanitarian aid and preservation end than direct intervention with politics and the like. They also appeared to be a very secret society, so secret that no one but their members knew about them. Jessian was something of a "sleeper", having an completely separate identity from the sisters we see on Athera.
This is just an impression. However, we have all seen how organizations change over the course of history. For example, the Christian church of the 2nd century, which was focussed on spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ hand-in-hand with supporting those in need (one of the reasons that it expanded so quickly was that so many were in need, and were attracted thereby) bore no resemblance to the all-powerful medieval/early renaissance pre-Reformation Church, the latter of which used fear, torture, extortion, deceit, warfare, ______ (insert your evil of choice here), etc. The early church leaders would have been horrified at what their church became. Cue Martin Luther.
This is what I am guessing happened to the Koriathain. As they became more powerful (like the Church) the lure of misusing that power overcame them, and they were corrupted. As Sulfin Evend said, Morriel/Selidie is a "blood-sucking witch". Were all of her predecessors that way? Probably not, as very few humans set out to found an evil organization. They always tend to believe that they "have God on their side", whether they do or not.
You are absolutely correct to ask why the Koriathain had an interest in the Biedar. The answer to that is undoubtedly forthcoming. Cue Janny.
Obviously Scarpdale had to come first. My question is, will the other grimwards be patched up, or, using the word you and Brian use, "settled", like Scarpdale. I assume that anyone could simply take a stroll through Scarpdale now without being immolated by dead dragon dreams, or any other ill-natured supernatural effects. Of course, in reading Janny's books, we have all learned to ASSUME NOTHING!!!
Brian Uri!:
"Seshy"??? It is easier to type, but surely beneath her majesty.
The points you raise appear to be part of the "deal", but there must be more than that. Davien must pay some sort of significant price, mustn't he?
Could Karadhmon and Luhaine similarly regain corporeal existence? Is this part of the F7 becoming whole again?
originally posted by DarthJazy
I think clansman just nailed it to the T. The prophecy says the F7 will bewhole again. We are assuming that they remain a fellowship and that remains to be seen but either way the obvious gaureentee is that the F7 could not be 7 members again if 2 of them are discorporat or DED.
Side note, shouldnt the Korthys only be pure evil 7 days a month? If so and Moriel is even 24/7 was species is she hehe. I know must be a group of Hermafidites from the nether regions of the abyss
originally posted by Hunter
Clansman - the relevant passages are found on 242 and 243 of Under Cover of Darkness.
Sentences such as
- Don't fall for appearances. No one's launching this rescue for the humanitarian spin.
- The stake's raw intelligence? On both sides?
- Esoteric knowledgeā¦ Magic. These tribesfolk possess the ability to evoke the paranormal
The Fellowship sided with the underdogs, not PanTac. The Koriathain had sided with one of the large federations (PanTac, WorldFleet or similar) - Morriel has said that the Koriani stood at the right hand of humanity as Calum Kincaid's weapon destroyed humanity. So I suspect the Korithain came out of hiding, as such, during the subsequent war.
Organizations change over the course of history as tools to serve the masters that preside over them and are used to meet their goals. Whatever their origins and professed callings.
Scarpdale has been returned to what it was prior to it hosting, however involuntarily, the remains of an angry drake. Davien was going to resolve those unstable grimwards so that Sethvir could finally rest. Whether all grimwards are so settled is another question altogether.
originally posted by DarthJazy
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Yay I'm finally done.
Ok here we go. First Off I loved it thank you Janny. Surprises for me were sulfin and arithon not killing each other esp when he caught arithon on the boat. Arithon getting rid of his curse in that way at kings glade. Kyliart his liegeman dieing to stopping parrion from killing Arithon that was a major betrayal. I dont get how Dakar betrayed arithon. He followed order to make sure the prince lived and Arithon always knew he would do that. Perhaps someone can shed some light. Also loved how parrien was used to bring the duke to heal.
Another question I have is what is ment from bieadar when Elaira remade their origonal cipher with out the forced mastery. It seems by doing so she became somethign signifgant, am i right she may be the first koriani to use the orders powers within the LoMB? which also brings up the question of why isn't the fellowship doing something to free seldie of morriels evil possesion of her body? Good to know the Koriani also stole all the power from the beider.
I don't get how they burned the goatherds body as the spinner of darkness when both sulvin and Lysaer said since the priest are all men of talent they know its not really him. I was under the assumption they couldn't use this ruse to end the war and then turn around and find out that they did. Acording to asandir Lysaer will no longer be allowed to pretend his ruling of tyson does this mean the fellowship have plans to go deal with lysaer once and for all or that lysaer is going on the run from the F7?
It seems to me that the book also showed that Lysaer was not in control of his own decisions when he allowed for the clans to be enslaved that he admits he was unablle to stop it. Now that he has shown some ability to stave off his curse driven geas she he not be allowed back into the compact? I'm curious to see how his cursed persona will handle it no longer has a means to summon forth the warhost to huntdown Arithon.
I also am wondering is Arithons child to be raised in althir or is the mother just staying through her pregnancy?
I think thats covers most of it now on to post elsewhere now that im informed. Sorry if not all this made since
originally posted by BillBob
I just finished today at lunch and all I can say is "Wow! What a ride!"
And titles for the next book or two announed as well. Can't ask for more than that.
Thanks so much Janny for the wild ride you've given us so far.
originally posted by Michelle-Louise Wright
What I loved about this one was the fact that you truly SEE Lysaer as a genuine hero - in fact more so since he fights the Mistwraith's curse off without the power of inititate mastery unlike Arithon. Although of course we all love Arithon it was the first time I could genuinely FEEL Lysaer as a tragic hero in the way Janny has suggested.
I must admit I was a bit taken aback by the living dragon - since I thought they had willingly forsken Athera? Seemingly this presages the desctruction of humanity according to the compact - since at the moment the sacred trust of the land is mostly f*cked - especially with new desert at Avenor created by drakefire?
(Message edited by admin on February 08, 2008)
originally posted by Jeffrey L Watson
I modified the last post to 'obscure' the profanity. I do have the profanity checker turned on for this board but that one slipped through.
originally posted by Hunter
Didn't Lysaer have a rather handy little helping hand in his fight with the Curse? Once Lysaer's little helper went away, he reverted to the frothing lunatice of the past five books.
And, my take is a genuine hero would have, in his moments of lucidity, have had the courage to stand up to his rabid followers and tell them to disband and leave. Lysaer has been devilishly clever at getting thousands of his own supporters killed, surely killing a few more thousand to avert the greater injustice of sacking Alestron would have been a "just" solution?
I think Michelle has eloquently summed up the views of the townborn and their appreciation of caring for the land of Atheraā¦