Oh boy - new faces! Warm welcome here.
originally posted by DarthJazy
Hunter,
Looking at the sacking of Alestron from a leaders or rulers point of view they were right to attack. regardless of who is right or wrong in this war S'byrdion still committed an act of betrayal agains't Lysaer and later Arithon. Now Arithon is infused with compassion which make it easy to overlook or forgive. Lysaers birth right is to persue justice and treason is right up his ally. S'Byrdon had to be brought to justice regardless of everything else. Lysaer fighting the curse allowed his control to not let his warhost kill innocents. This is why F7 stepped in, They were ready to wait out the duke but the duke would rather have all the innocents under his care die than give himself over. Asandir was right to strip his titles and land. He should have left way before when it was painfully obvious he was lost. Any decent ruler would have.
originally posted by Trys
Please be careful, the subject matter of some of these posts is close to Spoiler Material. 
Never mind… I thought I was in a different topic. Long day. ::sigh::
originally posted by Hunter
By what manner did s'Brydion commit a betrayal against Lysaer? Under Kingdom Charter, s'Brydion are oathbound to answer to the caithdein of Melhalla, not the regent of Tysan, Fellowship sanctioned or not.
From early in Ships of Merior when Lysaer forms his alliance with the s'Brydion, it is acknowledged that the clanborn can never pay fealty to the regent of a different Kingdom. Lysaer's alliance with the s'Brydion was purely because their interests at the time - the pursuit, capture and rending of Arithon - were in alignment. I don't recall at any stage the s'Brydion maligning the Fellowship, Ath's Adepts or the fugitive clans nor the s'Brydion formally joining the Alliance of Light, thereby binding themselves in a legal sense with Lysaer.
If the s'Brydion's interests diverged from those of Lysaer and they didn't really bother to tell Lysaer about that, is that a crime that justifies Lysaer launching full scale war on foreign soil where he has no jurisdiction to exterminate a group of people because they happened to disagree with Lysaer by pursuing interests that didn't align with, and be subject to, those of Lysaer's frothing fanatics?
The s'Brydion "crime" was not agreeing to what Lysaer wanted and, had he let them go unscathed, would have been a huge blow to Lysaer's ego and standing. Lysaer is the just force, the avatar heaven (but not Ath?) sent to rid the world of evil… If the s'Brydions were then able to defy Lysaer, to repudiate and clearly reject his cause, and still live unpunished and whole - what does this say about Lysaer's supposedly god-given right to continue his crusade and his supposedly limitless power. It would have made Lysaer look like the emasculated little tinpot dictator that he is… and there is no way Lysaer's vanity and ego would stomach such a public face slapping.
Ergo, launch a war to stroke his ego. IMHO, there is no "right" in that, which ever way one wants to look at it.
The Fellowship's removal of Bransian's right to govern was to do with his failure as a leader.
originally posted by Lyssabits
My only rebuttal to this is that you have to think like Lysaer, not the Fellowship. The s'Brydion may not have done anything wrong under charter law, but Lysaer, as we well know, doesn't honor charter law and by his Alliance of Light standards, they have committed treason. Lysaer's sense of justice, methinks, doesn't always align with the law, but with what he feels is "right". However you spin it, the s'Brydion acted as spies. They used their authority as given them by Lysaer to act against his interests. I think that's at least sorta wrong, even if we liked what they were doing.
originally posted by max
I've never heard of a 'decent leader'. Only the kind that dig in like pitbulls and don't let go of the head position!! [smiling at ya]
originally posted by Hunter
Lysaer really is a "if you're not for me, your agin me" kind of guy. I wholeheartedly agree that my post wasn't from Lysaer's perspective. Although my take from Lysaer's perspective would be even more cynical…
Lysaer has basically known all along that the s'Brydion were going to betray him. It must have occurred to him even when making the original deal with the s'Brydion what would happen should the s'Brydion decide to follow a different path. After all, with Maenelle's blood on his hands, Lysaer's welcome in any clan based enclave would be difficult at best. But, just like when Morriel's upset put pretty lights in the sky, Kevor was called to settle the people of Avenor and Lysaer was pulling his hair out and said, to Sulfin Evend's surprise and some disgust, that the perfect situation had arisen but Lysaer wasn't able to reap what he'd sown, Lysaer had for quite some time been positioning the relationship with the s'Brydion such that it was clear to all that the s'Brydion had betrayed Lysaer and Lysaer was then justified in launching war to crush the rebellion…
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The question is now whether Lysaer's next target is to invade Havish and crush Eldir for trying to play neutral and, as Lysaer views it, be a Fellowship pet. Or whether Lysaer will be trying to stop the avalanche that he created in the Religion of Light.
originally posted by Tygrr
I agree, it seems that Lysaer was only using the s'Brydion as a political expedient to excuse his warmongering ways. I can't remember which book, (was it GC?) where Lysaer said that he knew the s'Brydion were traitors, when they fabricated the deaths of Cattrick and crew. He chose not to do anything about it as it wouldn't fan his cause for war.
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Yeah, it's really got to ruffle Lysaer's feathers that all the people he has persecuted have taken refuge in Havish. First the mage talent took refuge there, and now the clanborn from Tysan were forced to take exile there. Plus, having the inablitity to move his slave galleys through Havish due to F7 intervention, has to tick him off too!
Not to mention that Eldir was involved with the return of princess Talith way back when she was taken hostage in WoV. I am surprised that he hasn't already done something about that as both the F7 and Arithon were involved.
In the end of Stormed Fortress it almost seemed like Lysaer won back his clear thought, and found the way to see without the curse. Hopefully that will continue without Alithiel's influence. His city has been destroyed, he lost his family, though he knows they are alive. He seems to be effectively hobbled for the present. Unfortunately, Avenor wasn't the only place where his fanatical religion has taken hold, most of the continent believes he is divine. I can only hope that we will see his redemption in the coming books, as we now have had a chance to see his humanity.
Now, for a bit of speculation. Now that both Lysaer and Arithon have bred heirs, the decendents should also carry the trait's of two lines, s'Ahelas as well as what their father is. Could it be possible for them to instead of following in their father's footsteps, follow in their maternal grandmother's? Would it be possible to see a s'Ahelas high king/queen in the near future?
originally posted by julie bryant
I can't get the book. *grumble*. Anything new about Ath's brotherhood or Lysaer's son and queen? (Or his son Kyrialt? Rereading series but not to that part again yet)
originally posted by Clansman
Julie:
Go to this link:
http://amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Storm ed+Fortress&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
and you can order the book. It will cost about $30.00 US, including S&H, but it is worth it! It should arrive fairly quickly, too.
If $30.00 is a little too pricey for you, maybe someone out there is willing to part with a copy?
Kyrialt is not Lysaer's son. Kevor is. Kyriault is someone else, and I'm not telling what happens with him! You'll have to read it!
Cheers!
originally posted by Kam
Spoilers. Kinda. Maybe. Perhaps.
I find I have Athera burnout after reading Stormed Fortress. I was really hurt throughout the whole novel by Dakar's constant abuse of Arithon's trust (that's right, I take these things personally). And not just Dakar, really. (Although it's really fascinating how Dakar's character has evolved.)
I understand there's alot at stake but there are some things a friend should just never do. The conception of the daughter is like a big tangle of deceit I wouldn't go near with a 20 yard stick.
It makes me hesistant about reading on, but I find I am pretty curious about Lysaer's redemption now. It's kinda interesting that, for me anyway, Arithon and Lysaer's roles have reversed and I actually am more interested in Lysaer than his half brother.
originally posted by julie
Ty Clansman. Had already figured I'd have to do that. I just don't want to wait that long or go through the hassle of obtaining a pre-paid credit card…But for Janny, it's so worth it!
originally posted by Angela Bawden
K, I just read the book, and my impressions were mixed. I really loved the magic Arithon did with the sword, and I LOVED the alliance of Davien with the dragon, and finding out how he'd become discorporate was great!!
but there were two things I didn't like: the overuse of adverbs and adjectives…but this could just be my mood of the moment. the other thing I didn't like, and this won't change with my mood, was I didn't like the "healing" of Arithon by the girls switching bodies. I thought we'd established with Moriel becoming Selidie that posession was bad…but this was with consent of both parties, so that kind of annuls that objection…and now Arithon has fostered a kid, so he can die, upping the tension in future books, which should be fun. I guess it comes down to me not liking that scene. It totally makes the similar scene in the previous book understandable, but I really didnt' like that one, and even now that I understand why it was there, I didn't like it. but I know i'm in the minority here, so I"ll not say more. oh well.
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
Angela,
I'm surprised you're only just now having complaints about Janny's use of descriptive language. It's pretty much an identifying mark of her writing. 
I usually like it, I'm always impressed by Janny's master handling of language. But I know a lot of people, in various reviews on book sites, have said similar things. But usually with the first book in the series, and then they stop and go no further.
I don't think anyone involved was particularly thrilled with the method used to recall Arithon. It was just necessity. *shrug* Like you said, because informed consent was involved, it's not comparable to Morriel's forced possession of Selidie.
And I disagree about Arithon no longer being necessary. The F7 have said that his and Lysaer's gift of elemental mastery may be necessary to solve certain wraith problems. Also that Arithon's Masterbard-ery could possibly be used also to "RIP" those conglomerated angry wraiths–it would just take forever to go through them one-by-one and do so.
Mer
originally posted by Clansman
No way, no how is Arithon now expendable. The tension that has existed throughout the series is that he was the last s'Ffalenn, and he still will be, because his daughter is being given over to the Beidar, in exchange for their help while Arithon was in his swoon. There is still no heir for our prickly Tier s'Ffalenn.
I don't think it has ever been Janny's objective to make us feel good with this series. Her objective has been to make us feel something genuine, to be changed by having read her books. TWoLaS are pretty heavy thematically, and they are not the fun romping adventure that, for instance, To Ride Hell's Chasm is. If Janny wanted us to feel good, the series would have wrapped up in Fugitive Prince, with Arithon marrying Elaira, Lysaer and him being cleansed of the curse, the F7 restored, and the clans coming out of hiding.
Didn't happen that way, and it won't happen easily when it does, if it does. There will be other parts of the story that hurt (I wept when Caoll and Jieret died) in the coming three books.
Ditto what Meredith said with regard to adjectives and adverbs. Janny writes at a university level of comprehension. Most authors write at about grade 8 level. I, for one, appreciate the challenge to the reader, and the increased nuance and levels of depth that it brings to the prose.
originally posted by Auna
A book I was reading last night by Jennifer Roberson actually used 'chiaroscuro' - a very common Janny adjective. It was cool seeing it used elsewhere and thanks to Janny, I know what it means.
Arithon is definitely not expendable… yet. 
originally posted by Clansman
This is one of those words that pops up as a result of Janny's artistic background. Artists would be much more likely to "use this word in a sentence", as it is much more a part of their everyday work, just as me using the occasional latin phrase to describe a legal maxim like delegates non potest delegare (a delegate has no power to delegate) or res ipsa loqitur (the thing speaks for itself).
Chiaroscuro is a contrast between light and dark, but it is not a word that I ever saw before reading Janny, as I do not know a lot about art. Very apt word to use in a series entitled The Wars of Light and Shadow, no?
Angela Bawden - welcome back.
Given your feelings, the current scene in the draft of Initiate's Trial will intrigue you, no doubt.
originally posted by max
So…I just finished 'SF'. And OMG!!! But I keep coming back to one question. Are Arithon and Elaira ever going to be able to just 'get it on' without the entire planet sharing the passion? Can't they just have a romantic getaway in a little cabin in the woods? I mean, talk about 'rock the Casbah'. I feel kind of bad for them. No privacy don't ya know. And on a more personal note, I used to worry that I wouldn't find out what happened in the end because I wouldn't be here for the end. Well 2 months ago it almost happened. I got pneumonia and woke up 6 days later in the ICU of OHSU on a ventilator with tubes down every orifice they could find. The whole 6 days I hallucinated on the medications they gave me and I was a very bad patient. Pulled out tubes at least twice and got out of bed and fell on the floor. I'm sure they have my poster in the ER that says 'Worst Patient Ever'!! You can be sure that next time I won't wait so long to get ahold of the next book. I really could have used some of Elaira's healing magic. [smilin at ya]
MAX!!! Wow, so pleased to hear from you! And most of all, that you're still with us. How scary and not fun. I did read in a book once, that the Worst Patients Ever are the survivors. (They know what they want and they do something about it).
You will be pleased to hear that I'm working at the finishing section for the next book. And it would apprear to be coming together smoother than I'd hoped. (First book, new arc - always tougher).
I am thrilled to hear you enjoyed Stormed Fortress.
Thanks for taking the time to write in.