Thoughts on Lysaer..

originally posted by max

Hi all, this doesn't belong in this thread so be patient with me, I am not tech savvy. Trys I saw the competition that little snowboarder fell because I happened to not be sleeping that night. I didn't see her grab her board, but she did slam her heels down and the back edge of the board appeared to land first and then slip. however I will say I could have missed it. but those vultures/journalists were all over her like dead meat. those commentators really spoil watching the olympics for me. their mouths never stop like they were out their doing it themselves. my feeling on the matter are this. they are not covering the sport, they are there to put their big mouths out there so that they are heard and seen and it takes away from the event, the athletes, and the whole pleasurable spirit of friendly competition which I in my naive way thought was the purpose of the olympics. sorry if I insulted journalist fans out there, I know there must be some good ones that don't showboat but they appear to be rare indeed. Lysaer has that Hollywood quality the press loves. [grinning at ya]

originally posted by Trys

max,

From your description what happened could have been simple loss of balance and maybe this isn't the same snowboarder.

I know what you mean about commentators. My favorite part of the Winter Olympics is ice skating and often times, to quote my dear mother, the commentators mouths 'go like a gobble goose's ass'. I realize that maybe not every viewer is as familiar with the sport as I and I can't tell a lutz from a flutz… but then I don't need to in order to enjoy the performances.

Trys

originally posted by Blue

To me, the ice skating judges always sound like a pack of bitter, whiny, fat ass has-beens.

Back on subject, I wonder how insufferable Lysaer would be, even without the Curse. Would he have been a nice guy (as we, the readers might have defined the term) or would he still have been a twit?

Arithon, love that little green eyed cutie though I do, would probably get slapped more than once, due to sheer bad attitude.

originally posted by Bec

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS - TK Spoilers Possibly?

Hi all

I think having Elaira present through Kewar went a long way to helping Arithon make it through. He couldn't stop because it would have meant her death. At one stage (from memory) even that wasn't enough but then he had other help (as Trys said) from soul's (for want of a better word) whom he had helped. Lysaer doesn't have that intimate contact with anyone at present. This is partly due to the curse, but also the necromancers have had influence on him either directly or indirectly through his closest "friends" (although I don't think he actually has any real friends at the moment - except Sulfin). The whole necromancer issue took me totally by surprise, I had noticed the mentions of necromancers in the lead up to TK, but never expected what happened. I have to wonder when their influence on Lysaer actually started. I should say that I actually find it hard to like Lysaer (I am not into blondes!), but if you look at the story from his perspective Arithon and the clans have done some really appalling things, and if they hadn't happened Lysaer would not have had to take the action he did (his sense of Justice HAS been warped by the curse). We have also seen, on several occasions, Lysaer questioning his beliefs and wondering if he has made the right decisions - however the curse comes into effect pretty quickly and stamps these feelings down. Would he survive Kewar? I don't think so, he could not escape the influences of the curse and I think he would find it impossible to face the consequences that have occurred due to the warping of his sense of justice. Just my opinion of course :smiley:

Bec

originally posted by beth

I don't think Lysaer would be able to withstand Kewar for one simple act. That would be what he did to Talia. At no point in his treatment of her was Justice being served. Hard to tell whether it was the curse, outside influence by 'friends' or just his own jealousy but he did not treat her right. I think that one event would doom him more than anything else. It is also one of the main reasons I dislike him so much.

Much of the fighting and such I can dismiss as being curse related. However, his treatment of the love of his life I can't really tie to anything but his own personality.


Beth

originally posted by neil

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

When Arithon "meets" his father in Kewer, he is reminded that to "condemn himself in this place is death" or something like that…

I wonder whether the oath sworn to F7 *to live* had an affect here or whether Arithon's self-worth was enough. It seems he was still at risk until the parvian told him to cast off the idea that he was "helpless", accept human error as just that and to deny the paravian's viewpoint if he dared.

Lyaser's treatment of Talith:

Unfair from her perspective, we saw, but from Lysaer's, he did not trust her. He imprisoned her, yes but then she was did what she did…Lysaer must have been shocked…then things were taken out of his hands…so I'm not sure about Talith (Lysaer *did* love her…still…not a great result for everyone)

If challenged to enter, would he enter or would he not trust the sorceror's construct to play fairly? I suspect all sorcery that is not done by his team is now suspect…

originally posted by Trys

But what did Talith do that resulted in Lysaer distrusting her? Get captured by his enemy? I don't think that's enough in and of itself. I think this was the Curse in full blown action because Arithon was involved.

Trys

originally posted by neil

She expressed doubt about Lysaer/Arithon conflict and whether it was necesary…to Lysaer's face :wink:

It's the curse at play here, so is Lysaer "guilty" in this particular case? It's just a disaster what happened after to her but the cabal was the corruption…Lysaer still holds the moral high ground being unfortunately ignorant of the nasty people around him at the time…who might not be so nasty is ever we get their perspective?

As an aside, I wonder what the origin of necromancy is…did it develop in it's present form on Athera due to increasing environmental frequency…or did it exist before humans arrived.

originally posted by Blue

Mild spoilers.

Take this theory, as usual, with a grain of salt.

I seem to remember that the people banished through South Gate were banished because they could/would not give up certain forms of technology/science, which were forbidden by the Compact.

Could some of that also have included experiments with magic to see about getting a handle on it scientifically?

"Okay, that guy from the Fellowship of Seven is talking about Grand Conjury. Obviously, he is using/manipulating energy, but how? What is the source?"

Suppose, for the sake of argument, a crude model of Grand Conjury became possible scientifically.

Like many scientific discoveries, it is something innocent in and of itself, but different applications are considered for using this new energy.

Gunpowder stands as an example. Magyre a harmless old scholar, used the gunpowder to amuse his grandchildren, with the pretty sparkles, pops and bangs, according to Asandir's story to the brothers s'Brydion in SoM.

However, OTHER applications occurred to people who read Magyre's work. Namely, the use of this "sparkle powder" as a weapon.

Pure speculation again, what if someone managed to get a good, working grasp of Grand Conjury, in a scientific fashion, and it was misused by either the scientist who discovered it, or someone who followed that work?

The Grand Conjury model is experimented with, perhaps "augmented" or otherwise twisted, and now a scientist has something to use against enemies, to enslave them beyond chains and shackles.

It seems that the Mistwraith came about this way, and it invaded Athera.

Now suppose there were people who did NOT want to abandon Athera, to go into exile through South Gate, and so, swore to avoid the science/experiments that led to the exile of the others. However, this group resented having to give up their experiments, and when the Mistwraith struck, took advantage of the chaos of the rebellion, and that the F7 were tied up, trying to keep up with Compact duty. The Koriani inadvertently aided and abetted, with that order's penchant for resentment against the F7, and the Koriani penchant for troublemaking.

The scientists left behind would have had incomplete scientific information, and so would have had to start from the beginning, and came up with something close to what the South Gate exiles used, only these folks, perhaps recognizing what the Mistwraith really was, and lacking the scientific facilities, used the knowledge they had to become a twisted magical order, a dark mirror of the F7, which we came to know as necromancers.

By dark mirror, I mean this:

The Fellowship of Seven represent free will, and the light and redemption of the Paravians. The necromancers represent enslavement, darkness, horror and damnation.

originally posted by Beth

Well, given Lysaer is arrogant…maybe the snowboarder incident isn't too off-topic. :smiley: The snowboarder who fell and lost the gold deserved all the bad press. She was showing off at the end because she had a lead. She did some pointless stunt and landed wrong. All she had to do was make the final jump and cross the line. Instead she wanted to show off and it bite her in the butt.

It wasn't just that he imprisoned her. He lied to his people as to why she was away. He told them that Talia was upset about not getting pregnant. When he was having her secluded. Also at this point he had already decided that she wouldn't have his kids. That is harsh to do to someone you love. Also, he may not have ordered her death but he did nothing to stop it or investigate it. Nothing in her personality would have lead anyone to believe she would commit suicide, yet Lysear just believes what he is told. He is relieved and moves on.

The being angry with her/miss trust I can see as curse related, but his actions can not all be caused by the curse. At some point his love for her should have provided some counter action.

Beth

originally posted by R’is’n

On Lysaer - Talith - recall that Arithon nearly murdered Dakar and did end up mortally wounding Caolle in his fit of the curse, despite all his better training. Love at that point, was certainly not enough to hold back the tide. Dakar’s stand in fact, provoked it.

originally posted by Neil

Maybe the Kewar test for Talith/Lysaer rests on whether she would forgive him?

Which I presume he wouldn't :wink:

In Kewar, Lysaer would see what he put her through from her perspective. Would it break Lysaer? I don't think so.

The end is stll justifying the means for him. Perhaps, he'd write off this "tragic" consequence as a price he had to pay and move on to the next issue…

originally posted by R’is’n

Question for anyone: do you think if Lysaer stood on the threshold of Kewar genuinely wanting/needing the test - would it open for him? Or is it only for invited ‘guests’ of Davien?

originally posted by Laurence J Johnson

Hello R’is’n, I reckon that it would open for him, although his heart has to open first before he could even consider such a move.

Lysaer’s is still the SPOILT PRINCE!

He is used to having his own way and is perfectly happy to delude himself and to pass the buck, take his treatment of his wife and her subsequent “MURDER” as an example of this attitude.

He is also vain, this becomes obvious when any other character starts to encroach on his domain or to steal any of the limelight.

LYSAER should not be trying to become KING as he is really more of a QUEEN!

Davien is an interesting character, his viewpoint differs from that of Sethvir and co…

I’m looking forward to seeing how his part develops, he may be more aware of the bigger picture.

SKOL!

originally posted by juliana

Lysaer deeply loved Talith- That point is made clear even in TK when Sulfin invokes her name to reach Lysaer in the dungeons of Avenor. If he did not have such an unyielding sense of justice- (and the mistwraith warping any thoughts where Arithon is concerned)his marriage would have been mended. This S'Illesid persuit of justice can be just as unreasonable and self defeating as the S'Flalenn geas of compassion.
Arithon's character is easily more likable but Lysaer is the one with the much longer journey of self discovery.
Kewar tunnel would be wasted on Lysaer at this point. The curse needs to be lifted before he can begin to take true ownership of his deeds. He has been given the chance of redemption through the F7, Ath's adepts, and the Centaur spirit- every time he stands on the precipice and backs away- what holds him him back when he yearns for the release?

originally posted by R’is’n

What holds him back, is guilt about duty - Arithon said it plainly to the F7 - Lysaer was raised to think that being a king meant sacrificing everything for the people - and that it is a weak King that asks for help.

That Arithon pointed that out to the F7, I thought, was interesting in itself.

Lysaer believes in the parental directive about Royal duty so much, he cannot conceive of personal freedom as anything but temptation away from true purpose. The release to him, is wrong and would be a failure.

He needs to learn to see the release as freedom - want it so badly he’ll push through anything, or in this case - life will create harsher and harsher lessons that will try to show him the flaw in his beliefs - as with Lirenda.

I hesitate to label him - the F7, for all their knowledge, I think are missing the point. They just want him to play proper S’Illessid Royal.

originally posted by juliana

I agree that that Lysaer has this ingrained sense of duty. However it has been many years since he was Prince of Amroth. In Curse of the Mistwraith we see some of the hate and distrust of all things S'Falenn taught by his father weaken. THere are many examples when Lysaer begins to trust and even like Arithon. So I think Lysaer's upbringing in and of itself is only part of the reason.
What a shame he never had the opportunity to explore the spiritual aspect of the mysteries.It would have helped him to change his perception of duty and self sacrifice. He was raised with a black/white perspective coupled with an exaggerated sense of justice.

originally posted by Trys

I think Lysaer was denied Rauven training specifically because of how Lysaer's father treated his mother and perhaps generally because of how s'Illessid had been treating s'Ffallenn.

Trys

originally posted by Hunter

I thought it was more because the King of Amroth wanted to use his powers as a weapon against s'Ffalenn - which funnily enough Rauven wasn't that interested in supporting.

originally posted by juliana

I wonder how old Lysaer was when the request was made that he be trained at Rauven.Lysaer may have been too old for the Rauven mages to have a positive influence on him. I have a feeling the King did not want him to go when he was very young for fear he would not then yield to his father's wishes to use his gift as a weapon.