originally posted by Hunter
I had a few thoughts on the Shining Avatar come to rescue Athera from eternal Darkness, he with the unstained hands and clothes, Mr. Teflon himself, the Unbearable Lightness of Lysaer.
Two main thoughts:
1. The prevailing thought seems to be once freed from the Curse, that Lysaer will transform into a fundamentally changed individual, repentant for his sins and one who would seek to redress his past damage on Athera. Based on the evidence from the books and Lysaer's actions, the Curse didn't have to make a huge effort to fan Lysaer's existing prejudices and hatred, all it had to do was guide Lysaer, the anger and pride was already there. In the review of Lysaer's aura that Sethvir and Traithe do at Althain after Lysaer is cast out of the compact, the conclusion they reach is that Lysaer's faults are primarily his own fuelled by the Curse… not the Curse run rampant over an innocent bystander.
All of which, to my mind, means that the difference between a Cursed Lysaer and an unCursed Lysaer may not be that much. Lysaer has shown repeatedly during the series, including two key examples in TK, a woeful lack of perspective and understanding of his actions.
The second issue is in regards to Lysaer's use of his powers to kill and immolate items. In Curse, Arithon performed an unbinding spell on the arrow meant for Jieret, this rebounded on Arithon big time and he lost access to his mage capabilities as a direct result. Lysaer has spent a long time learning how to turn arrows into flying dust, ostensibly to protect himself. Although Lysaer doesn't subscribe to the Law of the Major Balance and being cast out of the Compact could reasonably be expected to neither know nor follow it, my thinking is that the immolation of the arrows should be a clear transgression of the same law that should rebound upon Lysaer, yet it does not.
Or is the fine point difference between Unbinding and utter destruction in Elemental Light the key factor here?
originally posted by Maurice Peter Vialle
Lysaer burns things, changing them to ashes.
Not at all the same as unbinding, causing something to not exist.
originally posted by Adam John Bradbury
Hunter,
On your second issue, about Lysaer's ability to immolate people and items, I think the point to remember is that Lysaer has never been mage trained. Although he would have the potential, being clan-born and all, he has never been formally trained, and so does not possess mage-sight, nor is he bound by the Law of Major Balance. He is using his powers of Elemental Light to kill and destroy.
Arithon, on the other hand, was trained, and was acting as a mage when he Unbound the arrow, causing the death of the town-born archer. It was the result of his misusing his mage skills, and his gifts of compassion/foresight, that led to the blinding of his mage sight. Even so, his mastery over Elemental Shadow was unaffected.
I wonder if it is possible that Lysaer has perhaps blinded his own potential for mage-sight by his destructive actions without realising his loss, but is free to continue to act as his mastery over Elemental Light will always remain?
On your first point, whilst the difference between a Cursed Lysaer and an unCursed Lysaer may be small, whilst cursed Lysaer will remain unable to change his point of view, and so is trapped, perhaps willingly, on his path. If Lysaer is ever freed from the Mistwraiths Curse, the potential for growth will be returned, allowing Lysaer the ability to change the direction of his life. Even so, that wont mean that Lysaer will ever choose to change.
Just thought I'd add my two cents.
Cheers Adam
Adelaide, Australia
Hunter
To add my 2c worth into this discussion, I'd hazard to say that Lysaer does suffer the backlash and consequences of his own bad?? decisions (even if untrained, self-blinded, or uncaring enough to worry about it) and that there may well be consequences but we might need to wait for a Paravian return to see that.
I'd refer you to a certain scene from TK where the impact of Lysaer's misrule is explained in the bigger scheme of things, but this isn't a spoiler thread 
On another matter of interest, since we're discussing Lysaer: Are there are devout Lysaer fans out there who believe he's "in the right" in his course of action throughout the series and needs to catch up with Arithon one of these days? (Sooner rather than later?)
originally posted by Cheryl Detmer
haha Hunter on Mr. Teflon himself. That's priceless and so true. To answer your question from my view Andrew, A huge, huge NO on being a Lysaer fan. lol but I do hope he is saved in the end and have sympathy for him where I know some don't anymore. I think that is what I hope happens. I think I did read somewhere here that someone did favor Lysaer.
originally posted by Annettevk
Andrew: My response to your question; NO!!! Definitely not. Lysaer is wrong with a capitol W as far as I am concerned. He has had chances to change his ways and ask for help and he has refused because he absolutely refuses to take responsibility for his actions. He would rather think that everything that he has done has been Arithon's fault. It will be very hard, if not impossible, for him to come to terms with himself, I think, if he ever does come to realize the error of his ways and want to repent. But we will see. Janny always keeps us in suspense until the last possible moment, and sometimes later, so we won't know if he is going to even get to the point of coming face to face with his shortcomings. I hope so though. That would be a very powerful and emotion filled scenario. I can see a couple of kleenex boxes in my future if this scene is ever written. Anyway that is my 3 cents (inflation eh?).
originally posted by Trys
quote:As we saw in Kewar Tunnel, Arithon was manipulated in little ways by the Curse… in ways we didn't even think to notice at the time they were happening. I suspect that the Curse is doing much the same to Lysaer and that he is trapped beyond the ability to make such a decision. He nearly did it in Althain Tower and suddenly, with a fair amount of vehemence if memory serves, rejected the F7's help. I think that was the Curse kicking in.He has had chances to change his ways and ask for help and he has refused because he absolutely refuses to take responsibility for his actions.
Trys
originally posted by Hunter
Spoilers…
Trys,
Even in the Ath's Adepts hostel in Shaddorn this was the case. He was being swayed by the power of the hostel and then snapped as the Curse kicked in.
The two specific events in TK when the Curse turns Lysaer into the mouth foaming idiot we saw Arithon become at times such as at Werpoint show perhaps that Lysaer is starting to get an inkling that not everything he does is purely driven by himself. Whether he can resist the curse is another question.
Perhaps Davien should invite Lysaer down into Kewar?
originally posted by Trys
Hunter,
Personally I think that would be Lysaer's undoing. I don't think he'd survive the passage. Arithon survived because of some outside intervention, I don't know who or what would do that for Lysaer.
Trys
originally posted by Hunter
Trys,
I have a thought he could almost walk through Kewar unscathed. Arithon (and presumably Kamridian before him) struggled to reconcile the horror of what they'd done with their compassionate nature and the thought of being responsible for some carnage and deaths.
Given his current state of mind, Lysaer doesn't lose sleep over the 50,000 odd people killed in his various campaigns, not to mention the clansmen killed by headhunters and the deliberate targetting of Maenelle and Dhirken for example. Given no foothold of a divided and troubled conscience, it's possible Kewar may have little impact on Lysaer - he believes he's morally right to have done what he did so doesn't entertain the possibilities he may be wrong.
I still think Lysaer at some stage has to face the shade of his mother to get her view of what happened when she left Amroth and ended up in Karthan and Avar's arms. Much of Lysaer's upbringing was a result of her actions and his father's response.
originally posted by Trys
I don't think Kewar would 'use' the same tactics on Lysaer as it did with Kamridian and Arithon… not to mention I don't think we know what was the crisis that Kamridian couldn't face. Was it a crisis of compassion?
I would expect Kewar to challenge Lysaer with issues of Justice so intense, personal and poignant that he might not survive.
Trys
originally posted by Auna
I thought Kewar was strictly for the compassionate line since it was the most risky to have in a ruler. I recall a passage stating that someone with no life experience could just walk through the place and not be bothered. I think Lysaer could breeze through because he's already justified all his actions to himself as necessary.
If Kewar could be used for Justice, Lysaer wouldn't make it because his gift got scewed out of true when Asandir had to remove the wraith from him when he first got possessed.
I think it's pretty clear the curse has to go before Lysaer has a chance at changing. He's in so deep though, I'm not sure he'd be willing to change even without the curse due to his character flaws.
originally posted by Nora
I don't think there are any hard-core "Lysaer is totally right" fans out there, but the fact that there is just no way that there could be actually bothers me sometime. For all the discussion of multiple viewpoints and no monopoly on truth, there's still no question, in my mind, that Arithon is The Genuine Hero of the series, for all his faults. I don't think any reader sees Lysaer's side as the heroic one, and at times it feels like the issues he represents get a short shrift. You all may disagree, but it itches at me every once in a while.
originally posted by neil
I guess as readers we are priviliged to see the minority as well as majority views…Arithon does make "mistakes" - he is human - but I suppose that he has the moral high ground (so far!) in this story even though the vast majority of humanity on Athera would disagree.
The first test (much the longest part in PG) in
Kewar is a challenge testing ability to rule. The person is exposed to all the unresolved issues in their life. They will pass judgement on themselves from an external perspective. If one cannot judge oneself fairly, having seen and anlysed "both sides" how can one be expected to rule fairly?
I think "Kewar stuff" is in the FAQ.
Kamridien died because he "stopped looking for answers" and his "compassion didn't save him" .
Arithon is very innovative but also honest. He was able to bring himslf to forgive himself and accept that he had merit to survive. He *accepted* absolution. Davien reminded him that guilt solves very little…
Lysaer, I suspect, does feel guilt but continues from perceived necessity. I suspect that exposed to the conequences of his actions in Kewar, he would not survive.
originally posted by Trys
quote:And he had help.He was able to bring himslf to forgive himself and accept that he had merit to survive.
originally posted by Laurence J Johnson
Hello Everyone, I have posted my opinion of Lysaer before, I also suggested a cure for him.
THERE'S MANY A TRUE WORD SAID IN JEST!
To be fair to this character which Janny portrays so well, he was raised as a prince and heir to a throne and therefor filled with princely pride and arrogance.
His upbringing seems cold to me, this may be due to the fact that he was raised without a mother.
So in some ways he is a victim of circumstance!
He has much to answer for but he is not a hopeless case.
He may be saved by being exposed to multiple Paravian Presence, Sethvir and co., may also contribute, they also have much to atone for!
I reckon that Arithon's compassion will also play a part.
Will the loving and enlightened way of Ath's Adepts also help to rid the half brothers of the curse?
WHEN IS THE NEXT VOLUME DUE TO BE PUBLISHED JANNY?
SKOL TO ONE AND ALL FROM THIS VIKINGSON.
originally posted by Blue
With all of the points the Vikingson brings up, I wonder how soon it will be before Lysaer appears on an American daytime talk show and blames his behavior on his upbringing?
I think Jerry Springer would freak out to have someone as dysfunctional as Lysaer on his show.
Seriously, though, Laurence, good points. Humility is something Lysaer has no experience with. I still say he is the poster boy for denial, which seems to go hand in hand with arrogance and pride.
"I did not do wrong in that instance; I was unfairly attacked."
originally posted by max
I really feel that if there were a press they would all be on Lysaer's side. I just watched two members of the press beat up on the little snowboarder in the Olympics because she fell on the last part of the course and lost the gold. And they were scrawney gnarly old dudes too!! I think the press would fawn all over Lysaer… but when I first started reading this series, I started with Peril's Gate. I felt at that time I would happily have slapped Arithon and all his cohorts. It looked to me as if they were all just pissed off about not being royalty and not being allowed to throw their royal butts around. I felt the town born were justified in fighting off their rule. And I had to eat alot of words for judging so quickley. I kept reading about Vastmark and Tal Quorin and realized I was missing a great big part of the picture. So I finally went back to the beginning. My instincts for judging people are very poor!! I can tell by looking and listening how their health is but that is all. I feel we are missing a bigger picture of Lysaer yet that may come in the future books. I thought for sure Kevor would find a way to compassion for his father but all his compassion is for his mother. She does deserve it but Kevor is supposed to be an Ath adept and able to see into people. So I wonder if he is still angry over his father's supposed detached parenting or if he has seen the true nature of his father and finds him beyond redemption. time will tell [smiling at ya]
originally posted by Trys
max,
If that's the snowboarder I think it is, didn't she showboat (jump up in the air and grab her board as though she was doing half-pipe) in the last part of the course, lose her balance and fall on her 'face'? Or did the press get that wrong? I didn't see the competition and can't comment on it myself.
quote:If he was, I don't think he'd be an Adept. Just my opinion.but Kevor is supposed to be an Ath adept and able to see into people. So I wonder if he is still angry over his father's supposed detached parenting
Trys
originally posted by Laurence J Johnson
Hello one and all, Lysaer is also leading a military campaign, so to him as to many other Generals etc., it is acceptable to sacrifice thousands of lives if this means that they win the war.
The character which Lysaer currently has, is that of the cold hearted and blinkered Royal, he reminds me of a song by the Rolling Stones, which is called, SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL!
So will Lysaer receive redemption?
This is an intriguing SAGA!
Cheers.