originally posted by Konran
here a spoiler, there a spoiler, everywhere a spoiler spoiler…
After what this guy's been through, and everything he's done for Lysaer, I think he deserves his own fanclub. *hoists banner* Who's with me?
(I was kind of sad to see what could have been with him and Arithon, but I'm kind of glad that Lysaer has him, too, because right now he's Lysaer's best hope.)
originally posted by Lys
Spoilers! Bloop…
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With you! Since the last book came out I'd forgotten how much of a decent bloke he was (this was brought back clearly by his interactions with both brothers). His loyalty is incredible, and his ability to help Lysaer regain some control priceless. Go SE!
originally posted by Dorothy
I would definitely be a member of the SE fanclub. He's wasted on Lysaer : )
originally posted by skeoke
No spoiler, just fan club and question.
While SE enjoyed Asandir's company at Althain tower, he gave Asandir permission to 'do whatever he thought necessary' to enable SE to stand beside Lysaer and fight the curse. We found later that Asandir gave SE protection from elemental light. Did he also give SE a nice little longevity binding, like Elaira was given?
It would be nice to have him around for the next arcs. And so very difficult to train up a replacement (as if!).
originally posted by Hunter
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But… if Lysaer can start fighting the Curse, like Arithon did in the early novels, and, to misquote the great Maxwell Smart - "use his powers of good, instead of evil" - and with Sulfin Evend's caithdein's pledge to guide how Lysaer could/should serve the Land, is this not the Fellowship's best weapon? Davien forged Arithon as his weapon, Asandir, rather cheekily, seems to have done something similar with Sulfin Evend.
Sulfin Evend is from Hanshire, the rebellion started at Hanshire, it might be too neat to suggest that the end of the townborn v clanborn carnage would be neatly resolved at Hanshire, however Hanshire re-engaging with Maenol and his clans might be an interesting first step.
originally posted by Julie
Sulfin Evend is a good character and I also hope he's around for the next few books. He needs Fellowship training though in order to be able to continue to handle his seemingly split loyalties. He clearly respects the power and wisdom of the F7 but he needs the lessons clan raised caithden learn from infancy.
originally posted by Maria 'borg
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I disagree with the notion that SE is wasted on Lysaer. Not because he deserves SE’s friendship, but because he needs it. Now that Lysaer has seen that it’s possible to fight against the Curse, Sulfin Evend will be able to lighten the burden and maybe steer him towards redemption by the Paravians.
Maria
originally posted by DarkShine
Does Lysaer deserve redemption??? I think it would be more realistic if SE fails on that score…
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
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Possibly not, but just in case.
It has to be crucial that Lysaer has at least one person around him who understands and accepts that Lysaer is cursed, and can partner with him in trying to unravel the mess that Desh-Thiere wove through him.
I mean, he has Ranne and Fennick, but diplomatically, they wouldn't/couldn't be much help.
I think the "redemption" is Lysaer's to claim. SE can't drag him along by his lovely blond hair. Lysaer has to take the steps himself.
I think everyone deserves redemption. Absolution and acquittal of all crimes is a thornier question. You're getting back into territory of "What actions are Lysaer's and what are solely the Curse?" I think even Lysaer acknowledged in this book that the curse was twisting prejudices that he already had in place. So yes, Lysaer has flaws. But who doesn't? I have a hundred and three flaws and biases and prejudices that a curse could manipulate to send me over the edge. Almost everyone does. Even Arithon's actions that he thought were pure and innocent were twisted by the curse, as he understood during/after Davien's Maze. So it's not like Lysaer is Bad and Arithon is Good. Without the curse, possibly (probably I daresay) Lysaer would have grown to mature past those prejudices and insecurities he had.
But if you feel you can go through all of Lysaer's actions and untwist them from Desh-thier's manipulations, and determine guilt from innocence, be my guest! 
I'll leave it to the Paravians.
Mer
originally posted by Hunter
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Given Lysaer has been thrown out of the Compact and will face Paravian justice, I would think he would have *two* people of clan descent to speak on his behalf. Sulfin Evend being the first. I am also expecting Arithon to intercede on Lysaer's behalf, if required. At some point, the trials of the Red Desert after being thrown off Dascen Elur has to be seen by Lysaer in a different light. I'm not talking about a huge family hug, but the Biedar told Sulfin Evend that Arithon is the key to Lysaer's future happiness. Just how Sulfin Evend might try to engineer that or how Arithon might will be rather interesting to watch.
The big question is whether Lysaer can, will or cares about redressing the Religion he founded. And how or where he might seek to redress the wrongs he has caused…
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
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I think we all (or, myself at least, and I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone) have been oversimplifying Lysaer's possible "redemption" or "repentance."
We've talked before about how if Lysaer 'comes to his senses' he will feel remorse and disband his misguided followers.
Or we've theorized that if he 'comes to his senses' he may be so grief-stricken that he just kills himself.
With regards to the former scenario, I think it was really driven home in this book, that the wheels of the Religion have been set into motion too far, and that it can't just be stopped and turned on a dime (to mix my metaphors). Even if Lysaer wanted, he couldn't just call a meeting and say "Hey, y'all. Looks like I was misguided. This was all a big mistake. You can all go home now." His Religion has really grown beyond what he can manage, and he also is almost more a tool of the Religion, than the other way 'round.
And in regards to the latter scenario, I think I at least underestimated his strength of character and justice. In SF, he got a glimmer of true insight into the 'holocausts' (to use Bransian's word) he has enacted under the Curse. But he is not the weak, hopeless person that would just kill himself in despair. I think he will feel obligated do his best to right the wrongs he's committed in an honorable way, not just uselessly wallowing in regret or take the easy out of suicide.
But we'll see how it plays out…
I guess in this book I'm really just realizing how I daydreamed these oversimplified scenarios, and the characters are growing beyond those easy solutions. It's not linear growth, like Janny says.
Mer
originally posted by Maria 'borg
I find that this book is the first after the Curse that I can read the Lysaer chapters without feeling uncomfortable. In fact, I used to read them only once, the first time, to see what happened, and then skip them at further readings. Things like torture, selfdeception and unneccessary violence always make me feel sick. Now that I feel there’s some hope for Lysaer, I can read them again.
Maria
originally posted by Konran
Just prior to getting Stormed Fortress, I reread Dune and its sequels, and I'm finding Lysaer very similar to Paul Atreides in some ways. They both are natural leaders, they both capitalized on a religion to gain themselves more power, and they both realize that the institution they've set up is running away with them. (If I remember right, Paul touched off the very thing he was trying to prevent and it took his children to reverse it.) Paul ended up in a not-so-happy place… I wonder how Lysaer will deal with it. (Of course Lysaer doesn't have the curse/advantage of knowing every single thing in advance…) I also wonder what would have happened to Paul Atreides if he'd had a Sulfin Evend by his side.
originally posted by Hunter
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I agreed with the sentiment of being able to read Lysaer's passages without frothing at the mouth.
I did also note that in previous volumes, Lysaer was always refered to as the avatar, god-gifted, etc. when general description (not clans) referred to him. In SF, he was almost invariably called "false avatar" in general description. Not sure if it was deliberate writing but the propagandist verbage describing Lysaer of previous novels was refreshingly absent from this book.
originally posted by Lyssabits
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I have to say, contrary to my prior experience, the Lysaer bits were actually some of my favorite parts in this book. I think, because, for the first time since CotMW, I have hope again. Elaira still remains my favorite, but the Lysaer parts were such a breath of fresh air.
In his brief moment of lucidity he admitted, as Meridith pointed out, that the religion had grown well beyond his ability to control. There's no way he's dismantling it. I was never comfortable with the fact that we already know, in the end, the religion doesn't get dismantled. I've had this problem since the beginning of the series, trying to reconcile what seems like the natural ending to this series (Arithon and Lysaer figuring out how to end the curse) with the fact that we KNOW the religion of Light survives to be what seemed to me the dominant faith.
However, I can now imagine a future in which Lysaer uses his considerable ability to mold the religion into something constructive. I don't think he's going to be able to fool his followers into believing Arithon is completely dead just by burning Fionn's corpse (although I recognized that as an attempt of Lysaer's to do just that…) because the rhyme does say that the brothers fought for 500 years, no? We've still got a lot more time left. But present day people fade into history, and then are reconfigured as myth… and when the original person is still around after all that time, I can see him being able to nudge the myth into the direction he wants. 
The problems dividing the townsfolks and the clansmen really did seem to be that the townspeople never had a real reason to believe in the Paravians, or understand why their priorities mattered. The fervor Lysaer has been able to inspire… maybe he could reconfigure his religion into something more compatible with Ath's precepts, give the townsfolk something to believe in that would allow them to accept the limits the Paravian mysteries impose upon them? My thinking on this topic is sort of hazy – why would the townsmen be more inclined to believe in the light than they would in the Paravians? I mean, I hate that a lot of religions make their restrictions based on fear rather than inspiring people to do good for its own sake, but that does seems to be a far more effective tether. The townspeople never really seemed to get why certain areas were off limits, why they couldn't mine or they couldn't expand their towns… The concept of their activities interfering in the mysteries they couldn't perceive didn't seem to be a good motivator. Maybe they need the fear of the abstract idea of the Spinner of Darkness to adhere to the rules. It'll take awhile to get there, a few generations, but I can see Lysaer being able to do it, now that he's less likely to use his skills for evil.
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
It will be interesting to see how Fionn's death and ritual burning will play out, since I think it was made pretty clear that the "priests" or whatever among Lysaer's religion wouldn't be fooled into thinking it was Arithon.
But, then, I don't believe there was any big to-do and Lysaer standing up and proclaiming "Behold! The Spinner of Shadows burns by holy light! We are all free to return to our normally scheduled lives!"
Mer
originally posted by Julie
I seem to remember that when Lysaer was cast out of the Compact, the Adept admonished him that the movement he started would come to rule him. He recognizes that and has centuries to guide his "religion" to something more benign. Neither Lysaer or SE can risk overtly trying to change doctrine and expect not to have a mutiny.Burning Fionn's body has bought some time and allowed for the mob's destructive impulses to have a target.
Now that Arithon is free from Deshthiere, he can help keep Lysaer somewhat sane.Laysaer will be kept busy trying to relocate his seat of power. He is above all a self sacrificing leader.
originally posted by DarthJazy
I don't think Lysaer will be allowed to have a seat of power if I read Asandir correctly. As for Lysaer's redemption don't the F7 have to forgive him since they were the ones the sacrafice him to desh thier? Nevermind the fact they still need him too fight the wraiths that are on their way to athera.
I now wonder if Lysaer can still be made high king if he's allowed back into the compact? Now that Lysaer has some of his self back under control couldn't he just go to one of ath's adepts pools maybe the one where his son is? I did find it odd that Kethvor isn't even brought up in this book.
If he can no longer be considered wouldn't he be able to be trained in the high arts? I remeber somewhere it stating that he had the potential but never did get trained because it would make him less of a ruler.
As I reread the past books I'll be more inclined to read Lysaers parts of not Lysaer but desh`their parts since to me it seems that Lysaer till now had no control over what the curst did to him. Thats the difference from him and arithon. Arithon always had some control over his mind and a way to fight the curst and Lysaer always seemed to be under the curses control and manipulations.
Can't wait to see how it plays out
originally posted by Sundancer
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I agree, the turnaround in SF for Lysaer was phenomenal. The bit that haunts me was the image of Lysaer hating what he is about to do just before he wipes out everyone outside Alestron, but feeling driven to do so because that is the 'right' thing to do for his people to protect them from the worse evil of Arithon. In some ways his worst 'sin' is actually taking on the responsibility for them all - making all these people 'victims' instead of allowing them to stand on their own feet.
so sad, so sad. but oh boy, doesn't that sound like humanity - becoming what it hates through excessive fear.
Lyssabits, I can't believe that Janny would see a resolution based on fear keeping people out of the free wilds as being a good resolution. Mind you as there are another four Ages to go before the sages look back any resolution here is only partial…
However, I remember reading many years ago on this site Janny talking about a friend who persuaded a would-be rapist to desist on the grounds of the harm it does to both of them (am I remembering right?) - that seems to me to be one of her guiding principles - free choice and harm that we do to ourselves through ignorance, violence, fear, etc. Enlightenment, empathy, trust, joy, self-acceptance - these are the good things (fruits of the spirit?) that lead to the sorts of resolutions I imagine Janny aiming for. Look at the way Arithon defeated the Kralovir - by claiming his right to be himself which was endorsed by all creation.
So how are Lysaer and/or Arithon going to defeat the fears created and fed by the religion, and enable humans to see that they aren't the be-all and end-all of creation, that they have to share? We've nearly destroyed our world, and WE still can't see it, can't let go of wanting more.
off me soap box now 
originally posted by Lyssabits
*Lyssabits, I can't believe that Janny would see a resolution based on fear keeping people out of the free wilds as being a good resolution. Mind you as there are another four Ages to go before the sages look back any resolution here is only partial… *
Well I don't think it's a good resolution either, but for all that Janny is the author of the series and thus has total control over it, I also believe she's a good enough story teller not to make everything wrap up nicely in the end. The world doesn't really work like that and any resolution that's too pat is probably going to ring false. I also don't pretend to know where things are going, since I've yet to guess anything correctly. Trying to figure Janny out is a futile endeavor.