originally posted by DarthJazy
as i reread ships of merior and am reminded of things it seems to me that the curse is better than we give credit for. arithon has his mage training to not let the curst effect his decisions.
Lysaer on the other hand has no such protection. with the gift of justice he sees arithon as the root of all evil. if you view it this way is it not lysaers duty to bring this man to justice no matter the cost. there for all his actions would have to bear that in mind sometimes to get rid of evil and bigger evil is needed and that is how the curst wins time and time again. F7 should have given some training to lysaer and maybe they wouldnt be in this perdictament. Even though lysaers viewpoint is wrong he doesnt feel it is. I could see myself doing many of the things he has done himself if i was in the same situation.even with arathon not around i dont think lysaers curse lets him be at rest and the F7 dont seem to see this.
originally posted by DarthJazy
a note i forgot to add. It seems to be that Lysaers free will is no longer existant while arithons has his. doesnt this break some sort of rule for the f7 and why kick out a man from the compact if his free will is surcumvent?
originally posted by Jo
The F7 tried to help Lysaer and he didn't want their help, hence why he was thrown out of the compact. He wouldn't abide by Aths Law so he kind of put himself out of the compact. Lysaer has been told he is curse driven but chooses to ignore it (so it seems) because if he accepts that then everything he has done would have been worse than terrible and Arithon isn't what he would have everyone believe. Its only Lysaers justice that has been warped not the whole of him. Which means everything he undertakes
doesn't mean it is curse driven. Even his son
tried to help him and other Adepts but he refuses their help aligning them with evil. At
least Arithon accepts he is curse driven and tries to combat it which he has now succeded in doing. It still there but managable.
The curse did effect Arithon's decisions it was pointed out several times in the Maze. The Havens for one! Another point is Arithon said in TK that if Lysaer had training then certain things would not have happened and the F7 said that he never asked. He had to ask for help for training and never did - free will and all like Elaira can ask F7 for help to get out of the "twisted sisters" they won't just tell her she has to work it out for herself (very annoying but that's the way it is)
originally posted by Winter
Traithe offered Lysaer training almost from the first moment they met. Lysaer was even tempted, if I remember correctly, but felt that his duty to a kingdom outweighed the knowledge that ought to have been his birthright. You could go all the way back and blame Talera and Mak s'Ahelas for not doing better by Lysaer in the first place.
Lysaer has character flaws. The one that got him kicked out of the compact was denial, more or less. He couldn't accept that all the deaths in Vastmark went because of him, and for nothing. He couldn't bear facing the widows and orphans believing that, and so couldn't accept what the Fellowship were saying. Or so I understood. And that's understandable, if you think about it.
In other circumstances I'm sure Lysaer would have made a fine High King. And it's been said that if not for the curse, Lysaer might have been able to apply more reason to his actions. Still, Lysaer has free will, but personality and belief system keep him from making the difficult choices against the curse. Also, the Fellowship can't do anything to him (kill him, imprison him, force training on him, etc) without breaking the Law of the Major Balance.
That law is also what keep them from giving new babies elemental mastery. They had to get special dispensation to imprint the various geas on the royal lines. We've probably all read novels were a superpowered hero feels like their "gift" is a curse and resents the restrictions on their freedom such responsibility demands. Bestowing elemental mastery wouldn't be something the Fellowship would do.
originally posted by Sundancer
I thought Lysaer did acknowledge his faults, when confronted by the Seven, but when told that he'd have to go back and admit to the widows of Vastmark it was his fault, couldn't cope (couldn't face himself fully?), and let the curse-driven view of himself take over again.
I get the impression he doesn't like what he does much, certainly doesn't think he's divine (glimpses we get - e.g. in the aftermath of a curse-driven fury), but sees it as the price he has to pay to rid the world of Arithon. His denial of the existence of the curse means he now can't question his belief that Arithon is evil. The more he goes down that path, the harder it will be for him to get out of it. But it can't go on for much longer or he'll really go insane, or be completely ruled by the religion he invented - I'm looking forward to how Janny gets him out of that spiral.
How much of a part will Sulfin Evend play in that? He's going to be faced with an agonising choice soon between the land and Lysaer.
originally posted by Laneth Shadow-Walker
***Spoiler***
With the link between where Sulfin Evend was headed at the end of TK and whom he was expected to meet and the recently-released short-story…one has to wonder if the short story was strategically released to draw our attention to a previously overlooked people/area of Athera…
Interesting to see if this lot make a move again…
originally posted by Blue
Always expect the unexpected with Our Miss Wurts - aside from the consistent excellence of writing (and the yummy covers) in this series, that is the only constant with WoLaS.
originally posted by Angus
Can someone please give me a list of the WoLaS short stories? I haven't read one (though one arrived (Child of Prophecy) in my local bookstore over the weekend) yet, and I've got six months for re-reads. It'd be nice to track down all of the short stories. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think there are four.
I have only read Janny's teasers, which are just annoying (in the words of Smokey Robinson, "a taste of honey is worse than none at all"). You just get going, and then YOINK! the rug gets yanked out from underneath you.
If she does more teasers, I'll still read 'em though. What can I say, I just know I won't be able to resist.
Any chance of a compilation of short stories Janny?? I saw mention somewhere on the board of that possibility.
originally posted by Hunter
All of Janny's short stories are listed here: https://paravia.com/JannyWurts/website/Books/ShortStories/ShortStories.html
The WoLaS short stories are:
- Child of Prophecy
- Sundering Star
- Reins of Destiny (due for pub in Dec 2007)
originally posted by Angus
Thanks Hunter. I was wrong. It was "Sundering Star" that arrived, not "Child of Prophecy".
POSSIBLE SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
I read "Sundering Star" over lunch today. Really neat tie-in with the desert people of Sanpashir and Sulfin Evend at the end of TK. Also a neat bit about the Koriani. It would be really good to see more origins stuff.
Makes one wonder about what role the desert peoples will play in this last part of Arc III, and in the coming Arcs. I don't think we have heard the last of them.
originally posted by Angus
I am trying like heck to find Fantasy Masters containing "Child of Prophecy", but despite quickly flying fingers over the keyboard, all is for naught.
Does anyone have the ISBN, the editors, and the publisher? This is really annoying, as there is a WoLaS story, out for well over two years that I HAVEN'T READ YET!!!
Sorry. Momentary loss of control. Please help anyway.
originally posted by Matthew
Some thoughts:
1)Just been thinking… anyone know exactly how many men each brother has caused the death of through planning… because thinking about it Arithon is in the tens of thousands to Lysaer's… thousand or so?
2)The entire conflict between the brothers doesn't necessarily have to last the full 500 years of war does it? I imagine there are lots of people who would carry it on without too much prompting…
3)Anyone else wonder why Arithon's never used his power over shadow to create the invisibility type thing since he had that little scrap with his cousin? it would have been handy when he was infiltrating the Alestron Armoury.
4)Why the Fellowship would suck at babysitting.
I wonder what it would have been like if Arithon and Lysaer were 5 years old when they passed through the gate…
*imagined conversation:
Asandir 'Lysaer is calling himself Lord of Light and has gathered the other children into a small impish army. Arithon seems to be fleeing for his life… opps i think the forest is on fire now, that was a badly thrown light blast…'
Dakar 'shouldn't you intervene'
Sethvir 'we must respect free-will and the law of major balance'*
In the words of the the comic guy in the simpsons: worst babysitters EVER.
5) Arithon accepting kingship doesn't necessarily mean he'll be crowned king does it?
originally posted by Mark Timmony
Angus, Galaxy have the paperback of Fantasy Masters in stock. 
It's published by Baen Books and the ISBN is 1416509275
originally posted by Winter
Angus - Try looking for it under "Masters of Fantasy" as the title, you may have more luck. I know the Toronto Public Library have a few copies and a quick search at Chapters.ca turned it up quickly.
Matthew, in my opinion…
1) Depends on how you look at it. Lysaer launched the Vastmark campaign, and would have expected some casualties (although not quite as many) so he "planned" those deaths as well. Arithon involves the minimal amount of people in his campaigns, Lysaer invovles the maximum. You'd have to calculate per capita to be fair. You'd have to add every person who died because of Lysaer's false religion too (most of whom were probably more or less neutral in the conflict).
2) The conflict could go on after both their deaths or it could all end in just a few more years. Only Janny knows…
3) I'd have to re-read, but maybe he did. We know Tharrick wasn't negligent in his duties when Arithon slipped through afterall. It's easier to hide in plain sight, so he can eat, drink, sleep in a bed and walk around in disguise. If he's invisible all the time he'd have to constantly avoid being bumped into, steal food, and sleep in places where somebody won't inadvertently step on him. And people with mage sense would pick him out. The curse allows Lysaer to sense Arithon's mere presence so invisibility would work there either.
5) No, but I'm sure the Fellowship would want to crown him as soon as possible. It'd be interesting to see how Kingship would effect Arithon's power. He'd be connected to Raithan through all the elements, and perhaps might be given the crown jewels as well.
originally posted by Trys
Hi all,
Been away for a few weeks. GREAT discussion! Really enjoying it. Please don't stop just 'cause I'm back. 
Re: F7 restoration, I believe the Black Rose Prophecy entry in the appendix of later books uses the word 'reunification' but don't have a copy of the book readily to hand,
Angus,
Masters of Fantasy at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Fantasy-Baen-Science-Fiction/dp/1416509275/ref=pd_ bbs_1/103-3605796-6381442?ie=UTF8&s=books&sr=1-1
Trys
originally posted by Angus
Trys & Mark:
Thanks. Already ordered. Waiting for it to arrive at my local bookshop (I like supporting them, even though Amazon is cheaper).
Angus.
originally posted by Matthew
The reference does say reunification of the fellowship of the seven. But does that mean reunification of the original members of the fellowship… or reunification of the fellowship of seven as an organisation?
It seems a fine point to argue but there are precedents in history of an 'organisation' splitting and forming splinter-groups, only for those same splinter-groups to join together again at a later date under the original name.
Germany - Berlin wall…
Maybe im stretching here.
originally posted by Matthew
Maybe Dakar's Black Rose Prophecy is about a new song by David Hasslehoff?
originally posted by Trys
Matthew,
Sorry but I think you are beating this dead horse to a messy mass of protoplasm. There is no doubt in my mind that reunification means the original seven being joined together once again. Any combination of 6 or less with 1 or more others would be unification… not re-unification.
Trys
originally posted by Matthew
I know, i know. The horse is well and truely dead. I'm posting all over the place for want of something else to do check out my slightly more interesting arguments…