I'm a Newbie (Poss Spoilers?)

I believe that it's been said in the past that the Fellowship of Seven refers specifically to the seven sorcerers the drakes summoned. Even if Arithon, Dakar or Verrain were to continue gaining powers, they would never actually be one of the Seven, so "restored to seven" in the prophecy should be interpreted literally.

Prophecy aside though, although Arithon can never be one of the "Fellowship of Seven", I bet he has the potential to become as powerful as one!

originally posted by Matthew

As masterbard AND mage he may be able to develope a greater range of understanding then even the fellowship… as far as i know none of them can carry a tune =P

originally posted by DarthJazy

That i agree with. I look forward more to see what happens with lysaer. he has done all that he is done out of a warped since of justice. so muh for companion compassion considering they sacraficed him for thier precious prophecy. I feel he has the potential to be the greatest of all the leaders if they can just get rid of the curse and bring the realm into a true age of light

originally posted by Blue

Agreed on Lysaer, DarthJazy (cool screen name, by the way!).

That is the tragedy of Lysaer, that he has the gift of true Justice, and it is so warped and perverted by the curse that he is the antithesis of everything he COULD be.

Remember, way back when in CotM, he was the ONLY one to feel any kind of pity for Arithon's situation when Arithon had been captured by the Amroth warship, Briane.

1. He visited Arithon personally, and his first impulse was to ease the cruelty of the bindings on his hands - the sailors were so scared, they bound his hands with manacles, then his fingers with wire. I'm learning how to do various things with wire jewelry, and I can attest, that BLOODY hurts!

2. Lysaer ordered Arithon to be drugged, even though the Briane's healer protested, because it was the only way to get him to port safely. In fact, Lysaer had been inclined to let him die of an overdose, rather than reach Port Royal alive, knowing what his lovely father had in mind.

3. He dared to argue with Asandir about how Arithon was being treated, essentially being forced against his will to assume a kingship he did NOT want, to the detriment of his music.

As for all of you new folks, feel free to talk to the rest of us - we don't bite, honest! :smiley:

originally posted by Matthew

Forgive me if im wrong, but isnt it supposed to be the joint efforts of Lysaer AND Arithon which will defeat the wraiths completely? which would seem to imply that Lysaer will go through some form of redemption. I know alot of people don't like him for his actions but there is something about Lysaer that makes me sympathetic. Thinking of a character in another interesting book… Saul was hardly likable as he went around killing people… but he had a change of heart and became one of the most enthusiastic apostles. Without the curse and with his mage sight opened up… maybe Lysaer would have a chance?

Didnt Sulfen have protection from the worst of Lysaer's Light Blast?.. so couldnt Arithon be given the same protection? Lysaer relies heavily on his abilities with the light for combat so maybe if they could be brought together Arithon could concentrate on dealing with the curse without having to spare effort in protection.

originally posted by Jo

I have to say that In cotm I don't really agree with Blue, I thought Lysaer went to see Arithon in all his finery to show off. In TK (no book in front of me) think it was Traite said that Lysaer was already flawed before the curse. He def felt a little bit of pity when Arithon was tied up i agree but then who wouldn't (ok the sailors but then Arithon did attack them)
Before the curse Lysaer was already sickened by the clansmen and their way of life so he had already judged them. This is my opinion anyway and occasionaly I feel sorry for Lysaer but the most part can't stand the character, didn't like him much in cotm right at the start.
Anyway I am rambling as well.
Like you Mathew I don't get much sense out of my 2.5 yr old either and have a 2 month old so a bit glad book isn't out till November baby will be less demanding then all selfish reasons of course

originally posted by Matthew

Lysaer seemed to be ambivalent toward Arithon in CotM from what i remember.

The wonderful thing about all the characters is that you can constantly speculate about why they do things. Did Lysaer visit out of pity and to ease Arithon's confinement? was he curious to see the brother he'd never met but was taught to hate? was his visit prompted because he wanted to prove he was the better of the two of them (through the fact he was free)? was it his sense of justice that forced him to seek out the other person's viewpoint and otherwise he wouldnt have cared? or is it a combination of all of the above.

As for Lysaer arguing with Asandir, again the reasons for it may be more complex then first glance.
1) protecting Arithon from being forced into something he doesn't want.
2) did he think that arithon was unsuitable as a king?
3) was he worried that with both of them as kings that war would happen eventually becuase of their history?
4) for most of his life he'd been taught that arithon was nothing more then a pirate, whilst he himself was a prince (and everything you'd expect that to mean). out of jealousy would he try to avoid them becoming official equals?

originally posted by DarthJazy

Thank you Blue i love my screen name.

i have started my re read but since i no longer have cotm i have to start with ships of merior. I would think for the mistwarith final defeat lysaer will need to be used. I think the F7 were prejudice twords lysaer and wanted to protect arithon more caus eof there precious prohpecy. everyone in the books wants lysaer to take account fo rhis actions but is willing to forgive arithon any mistake. I think both bothers just need to be locked in a room together and they will either kill each other or come out as friends.

originally posted by Angus


Sorry, mate. I think that your view of Lysaer is a wee bit too simplistic. Remember, Lysaer, as great as his name might be, is directly responsible for the killing of tens of thousands: clanborn, people of Vastmark, those with vestiges of power who won't become sworn to the "Light", etc. and so on.

In contrast, the blood on Arithon's hands has always been in self-defence, even on Dascen Elur. In that splinter world, the s'Ffalenn ship, by itself, was on its way to Rauven to get Arithon assistance from the mages to make the land of Karthan fertile, so that they could abandon piracy. They were, one ship, attacked by a whole fleet from Amroth. On Athera, it is always Lysaer chasing Arithon, and whether it is his soldiers or those supporting Arithon who die, Lysaer is responsible for it.

Lysaer was not responsible for the attack on Dascen Elur, but he has built on it. Cursed he may be, but he has waded in blood since the last half of the first book of this series. He now believes he is divine.

I agree, I think that he has work to do to destroy Desh-Thiere. However, he must be redeemed first. He must be forgiven first. Yes, Arithon has messed up, but he always accepts responsibility for his actions. Lysaer never accepts responsibility. That is the difference. Forgiveness only occurs when there is repentence. Lysaer is convinced of his being right, of the justice of his cause, and is blinded to the facts. He cannot, therefore, be forgiven until he accepts responsibility.

It is those who were first around him and set up the false religion that really deserve to be drawn and quartered. Them and the necromancers. Oh, sorry. No killing allowed.

Locking Lysaer and Arithon in a room, right now, will result in at least one being dead, not friendship.

originally posted by Matthew

Does Lysaer really believe he IS divine though… i thought it was more of a political expediant to win him support after the numerous failures.

originally posted by Blue

You're probably right, Jo, about my interpretation. Vive le Difference! (my apologies to any French speakers for possible spelling errors!)

But it still seemed to me that there was some small portion of decency in his actions, vain though they might seem. Yes, he was showing off in the Briane's hold, but he was trying to give orders to see to Arithon's comfort, when Arithon went off on his "evil mage" tangent, trying to provoke his own death. That was part and parcel of the feud between the nations they represented, and both were at fault.

The whole mess with the drugs, too, had some modicum of decency in it, because Lysaer KNEW his father's rage. If Arithon died on the way to Port Royal, well, it would have been easier on him than facing whatever torture/execution the King of Amroth had in mind.

Good catch, Matthew, on the additional reasons for Lysaer's argument with Asandir. Never looked at it that way, before! (So much for negativity towards newbies. Even we long timers can learn something new!)

I am with you, Jo, on Lysaer being a jerk. In real life, he'd probably receive a knee in the groin from me. (That could be prejudice, because I think Arithon is the better looking of the brothers. :smiley: )

originally posted by DarthJazy

of course the woman would think the singer the better looking of the two.


I feel both brother are a bit boyish and pansies and this is war between them and in history or without i have never known either side to do the right thing. Janny must be getting a kick from this thread lol. I dont think either of the two could mke crown rule too much has happened between them and the general populace. I think crown rule will coem form kevnor i think is lysaers child and which ever child arithon has.

another question dont one of them also have to stand in place of crown rule for the other half of their blood from there mother which i curently forget? or is there another heir out in the world somewhere? perhaps a unknown sibling from the mother know one knows about.

originally posted by Angus

Expedient-exschmedient. Lysaer lied in order to get support for himself. How's that for justice??? I think it started as an expedient, but one can only be worshipped for so long before they start to believe all that garbage. It's human nature.

originally posted by Blue

DarthJazy, Arithon and Lysaer's mother was Talera s'Ahelas, the royal line that ruled Shand and is still eligible, should a candidate present him or her self, to rule Shand.

Aside from Lysaer (via her marriage to the King of Amroth) and Arithon (via her liasion with Avar s'Ffalenn, King of Karthan) she had no other children. Of course, who is to say that another s'Ilessid or possibly even a hiterhto unknown s'Ffalenn might come looking for Lysaer and Arithon. Or possibly even stumble, all unknowing, on the scene.

We know now, from Arithon's ordeal in Kewar, that he has at least one cousin who MIGHT be eligible for rulership, and that was Jorey. At least, aside from Mak, the patriarch of Rauven, and Talera, Arithon and Lysaer's mother, Jorey is the only s'Ahelas we know by name. I doubt, however, should one of them come looking for his or her cousin(s), that Janny would pull an obvious on us and send Jorey, just because we know him by name.

It seems unlikely that a s'Ahelas would attempt to rule either Rathain or Tysan, because those are the kingdoms of s'Falenn and s'Ilessid, respectively.

It also seems unlikely, considering his commitment to the Adepts, and his comments when he accepted his place amongst them, that Kevor will ever rule, either. As to whether or not he chooses to have children is also unknown at this point. Plus, there is also the problem that according to the Religion of Light, Lysaer and the boneheads who worship him, would consider Kevor to have been seduced by evil.

For all of Lysaer's boast to Duke Bransian, (of his legitimate maternal descent from the s'Ahelas kings) in WoV, there is no way, no matter WHO his mother was, that he would be eligible to rule Shand. Mainly because the Caithdein, Lord Erlien, would cheerfully skin Lysaer alive before allowing him to succeed to the throne of Shand. He might try, using his influence amongst the Townies, to seize power that way. He certainly would NOT be eligible under the terms of the Compact, crowned by Asandir, or ever accepted by the clans. Not to mention, the Paravians would not accept his rule, since he rejects the principles of Ath Creator.

POST SCRIPT: It's not just me (American) who thinks Arithon is better looking. It is also amongst different cultures. A Nigerian gal I know looked at the books and asked me outright if Lysaer was gay, because Arithon looked so much more manly. A Polish gal thought Arithon was definitely "hot to trot."

originally posted by Sarah Jump

Hi all,
Just wanted to add to what Blue said. Remember the time factor here Jorey was older than Arithon that would make him around 60 years old I think.

Ok back to lurking now
btw this is a great converstion some great ideas to think about during the next reread which I REALLY need to begin soon.

Cheers :smiley:

originally posted by Matthew

As for which is the more attractive of the brothers, who's ever heard of a fortuneteller saying 'you shall meet a tall blond stranger'. Dark always implies a certain amount of mystery, most women ive known like a guy with hidden depths and a little unfairly blonds have that label of being shallow airheads.

I agree Blue, i dont think Kevor would take up the throne after the experiences he has been through. It's a shame because if he had become king i don't think Lysaer would have challenged his right to rule.

*thought* why does Lysaer decide to strike Alestron because they may be 'allied to the dark' when a Fellowship (read: EVIL) sanctioned kingdom, Havish, is right there?

While a 'pure' version of the s'Ahelas line exists on Dascen Elur i don't think the Fellowship will consider Arithon or Lysaer's decendents.

The fellowship have an awareness of the bloodlines on the splinter worlds so they'd know if a line died out wouldnt they? i thought it was stated in the books that Arithon is the very last s'Ffalenn so another popping up is almost impossible unless… didnt Arithon have an affair/illicit liason/stress release thing with a shepardess in vastmark? i haven't read that book in awhile but im sure i remember something about Elaira forgiving him about that and she wouldn't hold the comfort he was seeking against him. Sorry Ms Wurts if i'm slandering Arithon on a faulty memory :smiley:

Hi Sarah, while Jorey may be 60 he might not be 'old'. The Rauven Mages may have learned how to extend their life while Arithon is away. Even if they haven't do we know whether drinking from the fountain would keep you at the age you drink from it for 500 year? or would it work like a fountain of youth? :smiley:

Even if he is old or has died it's possible that one of his children or grandchildren may have the potential to rule.

*another thought* why didn't the fellowship like the idea of giving people elemental powers? was it because they can only be granted to an unborn child so you dont know the temperment of the person you're giving alot of power to? or something darker…

originally posted by Jo


baby on lap so apologise for any spelling errors.
Regarding Arithon's liaison with a vastmark lady she couldn't have children as she was barren also he saw her in kewer so i think she may have died not sure. I agree with the girls def Arithon for me i thought Lysaer to be a bit camp also.

originally posted by Angus

If one took away the fact that Lysaer was a curse-ridden homicidal maniac, he might be a bit more attractive. If he were cleansed of the curse, he puts me in mind of a mild-mannered republican (a la John McCain). Right now, he is more like Donald Rumsfeld. No wonder the girls don't like him.

Arithon is a musician. In fact, he is the best musician there is. I remember an interview with John "Cougar" Mellencamp, who started carrying a guitar around in high school in order "to get girls". Apparently it worked, even though he didn't have any ability with the instrument at the time. At least in North America, and I think this is international, girls always like musicians. Look at a guy like Mick Jagger. He's definitely not winning any beauty pagents (he is dark, though), but his romantic liaisons are legendary.

(ASIDE: It's funny that the stereotypical preference for women tends to "dark", and the stereotype for men seems to be blondes? (Not me. My wife is a beautiful brunette, with auburn tendencies).)

Musicians always get the girls, whereas guys like Donny Rumsfeld…well, the guy even looks frustrated.

originally posted by DarthJazy

In defence of lysaer he did get the most beautiful girl in the land did he not. Talith even she admits to his god like looks. ill post alter when i think of another thread to start or somethign to talk about anyone got any ideas?

originally posted by Jo

I think Talith went for him because of his statesmanship its the power thing I think. Arithon didn't lavish her with attention and was immune to her beauty. If Arithon acted like Lysaer and Lysaer acted like Arithon I would not like Arithon for then I would think he was a homicidal maniac as Angus has said.
Lysaer mistreated Ellaine what an A***