originally posted by Lyssabits
Since Greek literature was brought up, here's an example to consider with regards to different interpretations of literature. 
In the Illiad you've got Patroclus and Achilles. They've been debating pretty much forever over whether they were lovers or just friends. Now, I'd argue that it doesn't really matter. Are Achilles' actions more poignant when motivated by friendly love or by romantic love? I'd argue it doesn't really matter. But people change this relationship in the various interpretations of the Illiad to fit their needs. Is that good or bad? I guess I couldn't say – I think it was completely lame that they made them cousins in the Brad Pitt version, because that was clearly done to make sure no one got the wrong idea. (And to make extra sure, they had Achilles banging everything in a skirt… can you tell I wasn't a fan of that movie? Except for Eric Bana.) But I would have had no problem with them leaving it ambiguous. I think in this case, it takes nothing away from the story if you change the nature of Achilles' love, because it doesn't change his motivation.
Now, if you look at Sailor Moon (I know, I'm a dork) they took characters in one of the later seasons who are gay, characters for whom this is a major part of their story arc, and turned them into cousins when they originally translated and imported it to the US. Super, super lame. And the S series took 10 years to come over, finally, in the uncut versions because previously I don't think anyone wanted to deal with the trans-gendered overtones of the Starlights. Although I haven't actually seen them yet, so I dunno how they handled them… but that it took 10 years to come over at all is pretty ridiculous.
So maybe reading whatever you want into a character's relationship is sort of valid as long as it doesn't fundamentally change the character from what is written on the page. I personally have no problem with fanfic, although most of it seems to be pretty silly. This is an interesting debate now with all the Harry Potter knockoffs in China… people are arguing over whether or not it's okay to enjoy the non-canon stories.
originally posted by Derek Coventry
I often wonder whether I'm the only one who get's annoyed with the current use of the word 'gay'. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to remember it's correct meaning and remember the songs of the early 50's in which it was used.
originally posted by DarthJazy
LMAO
Derek Im not quite that old (only 30)but have been thinking the same thing since this thread started.
I have often wondered at what point we started useing Gay to describe sexual preference and not its inteded meaning. But this thread is very entertaining and makes me very Gay to read it.
originally posted by Clansman
Hosanna:
I never thought you were attacking Tolkien, in any way shape or form. Neither my beliefs, because you did not know them prior to your post. Also, I don't think they figured in my post very much, as I was trying to demonstrate Tolkien's biases and influences, not my own.
I wholeheartedly agree with the premise that once a piece of art is created and released, it no longer belongs to the author/artist, as the interpretation of the work does not belong to the author. The author does, however, have tremendous power over others' interpretations of his or her work, if they choose to use that power.
What I took exception to was the way you interpreted the relationship of Frodo and Sam, and your statement about Tolkien subconsciously intending to write the relationship gay. Though I believe, as do you, that interpretation is in the eye of the beholder, sometimes there is no evidence. And I see no evidence with Frodo and Sam, or with Tolkien's intentions, conscious or subconscious. Supposing at the outset that Frodo and Sam were gay, without ascribing that intention to the author, is a different thing altogether. Then you are engaging in deconstruction of the author's work, to see what bits went into it. That I can understand, as I have loved doing that with history. For instance, what if the British had changed the way they governed the American colonies just a little bit, and avoided the revolution? Or what if they had defeated the Colonial Army? Think of the repercussions of that change, because they almost happened. But I digress.
I believe that most would agree (feel free to correct me) that Frodo and Sam were not written gay by Tolkien, consciously or subconciously, but that you are free to impose that supposition on those characters when you read LOTR if you wish, just for fun.
Now on to Derek's point, about the change of the use of the word "gay". Remember The Flinstones? "We'll have a gay old time!" No way, no how did Hanna and Barbera write that with homosexual intentions! That theme song came from the early sixties, so the use of the word "gay" up to that point was, at least in the mainstream, its traditional meaning.
Incidentally, Tolkien used the word "gay" all the time.
Finally, I must say that I am impressed with all of you. There have been some widely ranging interpretations and discussions in what could have been a very difficult area. It was not, becuase mutual respect ruled the day. Nobody got called names, and anger was never present. There might have been a little exasperation (I won't say on whose part), but that is as far as it went. My fellow paravia-holics, I salute you. You have truly governed yourselves with honour.
Clansman
originally posted by DarthJazy
whats with the the spelling of honor?
I often see see it as honour on this website are you all just seriously having typo demons with the letter u?
originally posted by Lyssabits
It's the British/Canadian spelling. Now our perfectly rational conversation is going to deteriorate due to the u or no u spelling debate.
originally posted by DarthJazy
Its not my fault the rest of the world can't keep up with the advancement of the english language. i mena come on the rest of the world is still on that "metric system" and they still don't have english as the world language. I mean really everyone knows they are supposed to follow OUR as USA example on everything.
(now hides from the beating sure to follow)
originally posted by Clansman
Lyssabits, you are prescient!!! 
Didn't we do this already?
Darth Jazy:
Thanks to Noah Webster and his American dictionary, Americans spell some English words differently than the rest of the English speaking world. "Honour" and "colour" are examples of this. UK, Canada, Aus, NZ, SA et al all spell it with the "u".
You Yanks also say "zee" instead of "zed" for the letter "Z". You also tend to use "z" in the suffix "ize", as opposed to "s", such as "ise".
realize vs. realise
honor vs. honour
ET CETERA.
There are others (like "tyre" for the rubber wheels on cars and bikes) which is not used in Canada at all, but are in full use in the UK. I don't know about the other former Dominions (Aus, NZ and SA). "Tyre" always made sense to me, so as to distinguish it from "tire" as in fatigue. Don't know why that was ever changed, unless it was changed the other way.
Isn't language fun!!!
Some of this spelling has crept into Canada (the "ize"), probably due to our proximity to the US, and due to us being inundated with American television (sorry, but it is not your best product for export ).
originally posted by Clansman
Ah, my dear, dear Darth Jazy:
You have obviously succumbed to the Dark Side of the Force, due to a self-induced mania brought on by your addiction to all things Star Wars, and your penchant for cheering for the bad guy (i.e. Lysaer and Annakin).
There is so much one could say,
but this thread, alas! it has started to stray.
Methinks it is time
To stop this rhyme
And to read Stormed Fortress all day.
Now that we have gone back to the spelling thing, national chest-beating, and even limerick-muse, perhaps someone should start a new thread.
originally posted by Lyssabits
I'd say the US is the one behind with regards to the metric system. I'd be all for converting, viva la metric system! I'm tired of having to mentally convert all my temps to C when complaining about the weather to my co-workers.
originally posted by DarthJazy
Hey now I did'nt root for anakin I just blame his downfall on a woman. As in all thing great and noble they fall and exstinguish thanx to a woman IE. adam eve and the garden of eden, Troy, the old republic, and to top it off they took our dam RIB
(now hides from the women)
originally posted by DarthJazy
I forgot to add that Anakin is the chosen because he does bring balance to the good side of the force by killing the emperor through redemption by his son who is now the living will of the force if ya follow the continueing story line.
originally posted by Trys
Lyssabits,
To me tyre looks like the Phoenician city off the eastern edge of the Mediterranean that someone forgot to capitalize.
Also, I heard recently that the US is one of only three countries to not officially adopt the metric system. ::sigh::
Trys
originally posted by Stephen Kenneally
I don't think even a forklift could get this thread back on track…
originally posted by Lyssabits
I didn't say anything about tyre, I'm pretty sure that was Clansmen.
Anyways, so Trys, I assume that means you'll sign my petition to switch to metric? We're in good company… Liberia and Myanmar… we really need to switch. But I doubt it'll ever happen – they'd have to change all the street signs. Although if we did, the guys who want to switch to a new font that's easier to see in the dark would be able to push their change too.
Do you think it's weird that even though the UK is on the metric system they still measure their speed in MPH on Top Gear?
originally posted by Trys
A question to the Brits, do you still use miles or klicks (kilometers) or both?
Lyssabits, I'll sign the petition. Is it online?
Trys
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
Gray vs. grey is what always makes me afraid. I can never remember which I, as an American, am supposed to use…
Sometimes I'm thankful for the different spellings, on boards such as this, because I know there are a lot of international peeps, and it gives me a clue to where a person may or may not be from.
I'm surprised that all of us Americans are fully accustomed to the UK/Aus spellings, as many times as we've been forced to have to buy those versions of our latest WoLaS tomes. (Okay, twice…)
re: the actual topic on this thread, I did say a couple of times that there may not be any harm with writing your own personal stories that change aspects of the written characters. But I personally find it presumptuous. Lyssabits said:
So maybe reading whatever you want into a character's relationship is sort of valid as long as it doesn't fundamentally change the character from what is written on the page.
I would argue that if you take a given character and write him in a romance with another character, you are changing the character, fundamentally, from what was written. If you write a story (to use the old example) of Sam having a romantic love affair with Frodo, it does arguably change his motivations for what he did and why. It's a different kind of love and loyalty, not as poignant to me as just an intense friendship.
Similarly, to write a fanfic saying Sulfin Evend is in love and lust with Lysaer takes away some of the nobility of his actions. To me, personally. When you're in love, you're almost a prisoner to your emotions. I find it more interesting when you're not obligated to help someone or be loyal to them, but you do anyways, just out of friendship and human kindness. I don't know, maybe none of that makes any sense or makes any difference. I'm listening to the Monday Night Football game with half an ear.
But I do think that if you write a story where you make a character be in love with another character (not gay love, specifically, but just any kind of romantic attachment that wasn't originally there), you are fundamentally changing them and the reasons for their actions.
Mer
originally posted by Derek Coventry
Trys,
This ancient Brit weighs in at about 14 stone; walks miles; runs yards; is a tad under 6 feet tall with a 36 inch waist and enjoys a pint of bitter; though I've always fancied trading in my pint glass for a litre tankard. I will confess to being proficient in millimetres when working though.
Also once I would have proudly insisted I'm an Englishman, but since investigating my family tree and discovering I'm 25% Scottish and 12% Irish I've settled for being a Brit. I've yet to locate a Welsh link but I'm sure there is one as I'm forever singing!
originally posted by Andy
It is true that the metric system has not been officially adopted by the government of the United States. And importantly, in popular culture in the United States, the non-metric system is used extensively. I'm 5 foot 9 inches. I am weighed in pounds (not saying). The speed limit is miles per hour. It was 25 degrees Fahrenheit this morning in Michigan. Undoubtedly, the non-metric system of weights and measures is alive and well in the U.S.
But I also chugged down a half liter bottle of Mountain Dew. And when I paid my electric bill last month, it was for x kilowatts of usage. When I pay for natural gas, I am charged for so many cubic meters of gas. If I were in the U.S. armed forces, no doubt I would refer to things as clicks. If I were a prosectuting attorney, I would charge offenders based on how many grams of coke or kilos of pot. And if you are a scientist or an engineer, I guarantee you that all of your work is in the metric system. You get my point.
Although most Americans prefer the English system, it is not true that we are not familiar with the metric system. But many people feel like feet, inches, pounds, ounces, gallons, etc. have more of a humanness to them. The metric system, which was a byproduct of the Enlightenment during the French Revolution, is kind of soulless and purely scientific. This is great for science, but for using language to describe and/or live your life, the metric system is somewhat artificial.
originally posted by David Gardner
In Australia the only remnant of Imperial measurements we have is height and even then centimetres is really the norm. You'd never give your weight in pounds. Really, you just feel more comfortable with whatever you grew up with… I can't really see how ounces are more "humane" than grams etc!