originally posted by Stephen Kenneally
Firstly, hello to all of you. This is my first post on this forum, though I've been lurking for quite some time (and once wrote an email to Janny, and was delighted to receive a reply!).
I'm sure it's very presumptuous of me to start a new discussion thread as my first post, but I ran a search to see if this has been addressed before, and as far as I know it hasn't. Obviously, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! I won't intentionally be posting any spoilers for Stormed Fortress, but a few references to earlier books may creep in. Traitor's Knot may get a mention.
This thread is about the prevalence (or not) of gay themes and/or characters in the Wars of Light and Shadow. I'm not assigning any kind of agenda or lack of one to the author, I'm just interested in exploring whether or not this interpretation is relevant.
Well, how do the underlying themes of the series relate to the concept? Among many many other things, the concepts of self-actualisation and self-acceptance are stressed. It is implied over and over that self-understanding and self-love are prerequisites for any kind of higher understanding (for example, see how the Koriani insight is crippled by their rigid chastity requirements - Lirenda's the obvious example here). This certainly seems to imply that the powers of Athera, at any rate, would consider homosexuality to be neither particularly unusual nor abnormal! (Heh, I'm trying to imagine Sethvir or Asandir being homophobic and I just can't!)
However, how do actual characters relate to the concept? Our first reference is a negative one, from the clansman who "captures" Asandir's party in "Curse…", and assume that Arithon and Lysaer are lovers and has a highly negative reaction to this concept. Arithon also appears to be insulted by the implication. That being said, what we're seeing is the prejudice of one individual, and not a particularly nice one. Arithon may simply have been reacting to the fact that offence was *intended*, whether or not the actual form was insulting to him.
We see huge disgust toward the concept of Shandian "prandeys" throughout the series, along with those who provide/avail of them. This, however, is far more likely to be a reaction to paedophilia (and mutilation!), not homosexuality! One of these things is not like the other. Not in the least.
A fairer insight into Arithon's reaction is when he and Dakar once pretend to be a courting couple to escape suspicion. He plaintively asks Dakar if he'd bothered to mask him with a female illusion, and Dakar's bantering response in the negative evokes no revulsion, though some (warranted) amusement. I certainly can't see someone with the sensitivity of an initiate talent as *well* as a Masterbard gift harbouring any kind of homophobia. Alithiel would not submit to being wielded by such a man - its very nature would revolt.
So we've cleared Arithon of any kind of homophobia. What of the clans in general? Perhaps the clansman in "Curse…" wasn't representative, but it's by no means certain. We see no gay or lesbian relationships within the clans at any point, and I think there's a very obvious reason for this.
The clans are obsessed with maintaining their bloodlines and providing descendents. Gay relationships (in general) are not based around this, and under the kind of adverse circumstances the clans live under, might well have seen their toleration sharply decrease. Historically on Earth, even in non-homophobic societies such as Edo-period Japan, there was an obligation for noblemen (and simply men in general) to produce heirs. The clanspeople *all* bear this responsibility, so there's certainly very fruitful ground for a gay-intolerant vibe to predominate.
Without sidetracking into religious discussion, the same patterns can be observed in the biblical prohibition on homosexuality. The prohibitions in fact cover homosexuality, unmarried sex, adultery, and in fact any kind of sex that wasn't directly intended to conceive children. The exact kind of prohibitions a small tribe persecuted on every side and with a high infant mortality rate might adopt - again, like the clans in WoLaS.
Returning to Athera now, we see how there might be some anti-gay tendency among the clans, and how it's certainly not present in the powers. The next important thing, of course, is whether there are in fact any gay characters in the series!
This is speculation, of course, since as far as I know there are no openly gay characters in WoLaS. So here goes! There is significant evidence for at least two main characters in WoLaS being gay, one of whom was pointed out to me by another poster, whose username has slipped my mind (sorry!).
That is (did you guess?) Sulfin Evend. What evidence is there? Apart from him not having shown interest in any women so far in the series (excusable by a devotion to duty), the scenes from his perspective with Lysaer are simply redolent with description of Lysaer's beauty. It's almost homoerotic the way Sulfin "narrates" Lysaer's physical descriptions over and over - anyone else remember the dual-bathing scene that ended in naked wrestling?! His revulsion at siring a Koriani child was a tiny bit excessive for an otherwise fairly pragmatic man. Beyond that, his actions for Lysaer go above and beyond those of a subordinate acting out of loyalty, or even those of a friend risking all for a friend. Sulfin's devotion to Lysaer despite what he has become is evident (to me, at least) of a deep, unrequited love. He is completely smitten with Lysaer's beauty and his potential, his nobility under mind-shattering stress, and the laid-bare soul of a man trying to redeem his fatal character flaws. What makes it worse is that I don't think Lysaer can reciprocate in the way Sulfin needs. Lysaer is not gay. There's never even been a hint of latent bisexuality. He's very interested in women, though he closed himself off sexually after Talith. Among other things, this could be truly tragic for Sulfin - Lysaer's love for him can never be other than platonic, and he knows it.
That's the more obvious gay character. However, there's another, whose sexuality, though less overt, is still fairly obvious (in my opinion, at least) to the dedicated observer. It might be claimed that it isn't relevant, but it suffuses such a large part of who he is that it seems actually essential to understanding his character. Who is this underrated gay character?
Davien, of course. (cue gasps or satisfied nods from observers) Why? Maybe it's just my own perspective that makes this easier, but … reread any of his scenes with Arithon. Any at all. Particularly in his unguarded moments, Davien's sexuality is just incredibly intrinsic to his relationship with Arithon. Not that he's in love with Arithon or anything so obvious, but he's in love with the *concept* of Arithon, and the freedom for self-actualisation and self-realisation that Arithon represents as the bearer of Alithiel. His description of Arithon as "my wild falcon" is telling. Davien, as a personality, is completely incapable of being untrue to his nature. Sure, he's duplicitous and tricksy and hard to understand. That's part of his nature. Davien can't be not-Davien. (Well, none of the Sorcerers could, but Davien, as I see it, is even more "in" his self and defensive of it than the others.) Some other clues: Davien can't stand restraint. Not by dragons, not by Paravians, not by anyone. He can't stand to see others restrained either. Obviously, this is circumstantial evidence, but "gaydar" (whether for "real" or "not-real" characters) is very much an intuitive thing in any case. The other major factor with Davien is his works. *All* of Davien's works investigate the concept of self, self-understanding and self-acceptance, themes directly related to homosexuality in general and Davien in particular. See his major works:
- Rockfell Peak prison wards - reflect the imprisoned entity back upon itself.
- Kewar maze - goes without saying.
- Five Centuries Fountain - as I see it, this was designed to answer the question "What will a human risk for longevity?" Even more interestingly, it also answers "What will a human *do* with this longevity?" This explores the essential nature of self and purpose.
- Entrance to the elementals' chamber in the Paravian fortress. The test here is a test of wisdom, insight and self-understanding. Only someone with incredibly high (even for Sorcerers) levels of self-understanding could possibly have crafted it. Also, only someone with an understanding of the mind's predilection for self-deception and self-blinding could have crafted the traps within it.
There are a couple more hints in Stormed Fortress, but I promised I wouldn't reference that. So I won't. Maybe in the spoiler forum.
Anyway, that's really about all I have to say on the topic. To summarise: the underlying nature of WoLaS is fully tolerant of homosexuality; Arithon, despite first impression, is in no way homophobic; there is an implied homophobic undercurrent in the clans, which is mostly situational; the two most-likely-gay characters are Sulfin Evend and Davien.
Now, the fun part! What do you guys think on this? Please pitch in, critique my comments and suggestions to bits, post counterexamples or supporting examples. Did I miss a desriptive passage? Did I completely misinterpret something? How could I have omitted [name / thing]? Let me know, and discuss it!! If Janny wants to comment, she's of course very welcome, though I understand she might prefer to keep an amused silence for now. Still, any pronouncements on the underlying ethic would be rapturously received.
Also, thanks very much to anyone who slogged through all that text! I certainly didn't expect it to become as long as it did, but I really enjoyed writing this, and hope you enjoy reading it and discussing the issues I raised. I look forward to discussing it with you all!
Thanks,
Stephen.
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
Hm, I don't necessarily agree with all the conclusions you've drawn. They seem pretty biased, like you may be reading with the intent of finding what you're looking for. Not that we don't all do that over one thing or another.
But it's been too long since I've read the earlier books to comment on those conclusions. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but I don't recall drawing any of those conclusions when I read the books. But, maybe I'm the biased reader! Who knows.
But to discuss Sulfin Evend at least… Sorry, but I must delve into SF for just a moment, but I SWEAR it's not a plot revealing spoiler in case anyone wants to read through… Just in case.
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Just to address Sulfin Evend for a moment, because I had read the same person's post (whoever it was) wondering aloud if SE was gay, and so I was reading SF with that thought broiling in the back of my mind during all his scenes. In the text of this book, SE himself is subject to regret that he does not have a "beloved woman awaiting, and no children to grace him with welcome." So I think he is a man devoted to his cause, and his 'friend' (as Lysaer is frequently described) to the exclusion of dalliance with women, or anything worth mentioning. His job description would keep him busy day and night. But he has his regret that he doesn't have a wife and family at home waiting for him.
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And besides, everyone reflects on Lysaer's beauty or strikingness when they're with him in their POV. Except, perhaps Arithon…
So, I really don't think that SE is gay, or has a romantic love for Lysaer.
I think Janny writes of platonic love between her male characters very fearlessly. I don't read fanfic (just not interested), but I know that readers will glomp onto any and all possible existence of homosexual leanings to create random ships between two characters whom the author probably never intended to be gay. I know there has even been fanfic gay shipping of Janny's own works (though I never read the fics in question, I'm not even interested in reading Janny's characters trying to be "piloted" by someone else). Her writing reminds me of The Lord of the Rings, the way Tolkien wrote of the relationships between his main characters, pretty much all men. There were many deep, loving friendships written into that story. I doubt it ever occurred to anyone at the time to think that there was anything between Frodo and Sam, Merry and Pippin, Aragorn and Boromir or Legolas, except platonic love and friendship, but in our modern era, a lot of people look at that relationship speculatively and ship them into gay couples, either for laughs or in dead earnest.
But, then, in our day and age (at least in this country), it's rare to FIND two men who would admit to such a deep and lasting, loving and respectful, devoted friendship–like Lysaer and Sulfin Evend. Because people would think "Oh they're gay. Or at least one of them is."
So I think it's fearless for Janny to just throw her characters out there, two guys who are friends that love each other unromantically and are devoted to each other. Even though people may try to hook them up, behind closed tent flaps. 
All I can say is that if I were an author and I wrote from the heart and from years and years and years of intricate development on a character, and then someone blatantly stole that character and willfully turned them into something they were never meant to be… I would be a little proprietarily cheesed off. I think it's very presumptuous.
As for your theory on Davien, I couldn't begin to speculate there. I try to theorize as little as possible when it comes to that particular Sorcerer.
Anyhow, it is interesting speculation, that I'm surprised we've never had before… except that it can be dangerous ground to tread upon.
Mer
originally posted by Stephen Kenneally
Thanks for replying, Meredith! That's a good point you make about Sulfin.
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Still, though, I'd read that "I don't have that waiting for me" line more as him feeling he can't have a stable home/traditional family relationship, not because of his duty, but because of his love for Lysaer, both platonic and romantic, as well as his sexuality. I think he's just regretting what he'll never have, that's all.
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And it's true that everyone reflects on Lysaer's beauty, but Sulfin seems to do it a lot more than the rest. But perhaps that's just me.
You're absolutely and completely right in what you say about platonic male love, and maybe I should have made clearer what I thought about that. I have no patience with "shipping" in anything other than a joking context - the characters are who they are. Your references to LOTR are good examples: Frodo and Sam is a perfect platonic relationship, and I'd never seen it as anything else.
In this case, however, I'm just trying to interpret what I see as an important aspect of these characters (besides, if I were shipping, you'd think I'd do it with characters who had ANY possibility of ending up together, or, for that matter, had even met!! :p).
The same way that several of Trudi Canavan's and Mercedes Lackey's characters' sexualities are an important, if not intrinsic, part of who they are, I'm just exploring to see if that concept/interpretation relates to any of the characters in WoLaS, as well as providing an overall perspective on these concepts in the series as a whole (because the concepts are definitively there, as referenced by the incidents I mentioned).
I hope you don't think *I* was wilfully misinterpreting these characters, I hope it was just a general point. Because you're right, twisting a character out of who they are *is* highly presumptuous, and I wouldn't like to think I was capable of it. All I was doing was interpreting these two characters from an unusual but certainly valid perspective, from the evidence available. So we don't disagree over that, I like to think.
"Dangerous ground" … like all things associated with Davien, I dare say! 
Anyway, thanks so much for your reply. It's good to know I'm inspiring discussion, and I really enjoyed reading your post.
originally posted by Lyssabits
Yeah I'd have to say, if I got any message at all with regards to homosexuality from these books, it was that it was not looked upon kindly, with perhaps the exception of Jaelot, but there Dakar mentioned it as proof of Jaelot's complete depravity. Which doesn't really surprise me given the sort of society we have in this story. The point you make about how the LotMB seems like it would naturally lend acceptance to any lifestyle that didn't hurt anyone else seems valid, but I really haven't seen any evidence that it is a lifestyle choice for anyone other than pedophiles or debauched Jaelot nobles. My gaydar has never been good, but everyone's reaction to Lysaer has never really struck me as sexually charged. More like looking at a beautiful piece of art or something. His male beauty is what lends him his air of divinity, and I think people would be appalled at the idea of sullying their avatar with normal human lust. Sulfin Evend may not buy his god-shtick now, but until recent events he was convinced that Lysaer was the sort of divine being he professed to be, or at least believed that his powers had delivered him from the grimward. The sort of fervent devotion someone has for a divine idol has always been what I saw characterizing their relationship. Hard to say how it's changed now that Lysaer's been knocked off his pedestal. I think Sulfin Evend's not quite had the light knocked out of his eyes, for all that he now believes Lysaer to be human. It's more like he just transferred his devotion from a religious fervor to his innate loyalty to a friend; considering that most everything he knows about Lysaer is a lie it's hard for me to buy that his love for Lysaer is built on anything but the twisted creature Lysaer has become, so his loyalty to a friend, to me, seems just as irrational as his faith in Lysaer as a god.
Additionally I harken back to that scene in Peril's Gate where Arithon's grandfather forces him to hang out in the brothel to understand the implications of sexual intercourse and the energies exchanged… Ath's Adepts tendency towards presenting you with an Adept of the opposite sex (with the exception of Lysaer's recent visit in Traitor's Knot) upon your arrival at a hostel. It really does seem like the book is favoring male/female congress because of the "naturalness" of that union.
But I've been happy to see kindly portrayals of homosexual characters crop up in a few of the other series I read, especially since they're booked targeted to adolescents, who could use all the understanding they can get when they're just starting to really confront their sexual identities.
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
Stephen, it's not a problem. I totally understand the interest in examining the evidence to see what's there. Like we both said, I don't think it's been discussed in depth before.
I was thinking further about the shipping of clearly straight characters (like Aragorn or Sam) into gay couples last night, and it really annoyed me. When it comes to a person's chosen sexuality, you have to respect their rights. And when it comes to a character, you have to respect the author's right to write the character a certain way. You can just overwrite and ignore it. Besides, if someone took an openly gay character and said "No, I'm going to make this character straight and hook them up with so-and-so," I doubt the general response would be as positive as if it were the other way around! Oh well, I just don't understand the thrill of fanfic shipping like that.
Lyssabits brings up an interesting point. The deeper mysteries in Athera have a strong tendency towards invoking a male/female balance for harmony.
originally posted by DarthJazy
I can't wait till I can read SF cause watch out from the how misunderstood lysaer is posts start anew
originally posted by Derek Coventry
I find this present day tendancy to push questions of homosexualty into every arena quite distasteful
originally posted by BlueRose
I think I may have been the poster whose comment you read wondering aloud if SE was gay.
My query was more to do with his amazing depth of loyalty and clear love for Lysaer (witness everything he has done ie cathdein oath etc) than a physical relationship, and while platonic love is absolutely an option, I just feel that SE goes that slight step over that. His committment and passion (completely tempered with lots of cold water shocks of reality and that makes it more relevant)could be the same as for a brother, but I just wonder if it is more than that.
Note that there is a lot of subtlety and delicacy in the way Janny handles writing these kind of things, and I am just curious if perhaps SE leans in that direction slightly, but not even he is aware of it
originally posted by Stephen Kenneally
Wow, this is definitely more responses than I expected!
Lyssabits, that's a really good point about male/female energies. I'll need to take that one into consideration. Right off the top of my head, I'm reminded of a Mercedes Lackey short story where a gay character is observable through magesight as having "perfectly balanced" male/female energies in his aura.
You're also right about male/female balance being perceived as natural by the Atheran powers. Actually this might be a good point to *Ask the Author* (since she, like deities, only intervenes when asked :p) if she'd like to comment on the attitude of Athera's powers here.
I hereby invoke the Author! Ia! Ia! Janny fhtagn!
Totally agree about the positive portrayal of LGBT characters - "Misty" Lackey and Trudi Canavan stand out here, and their stories can be incredibly important to young gay people.
BlueRose, I don't think it was your post (checking reveals it was Stacy Hill's in the Stormed Fortress forum, actually), but you do bring up a point I probably should clarify. I *definitely* don't think Lysaer and Sulfin are, were, or ever could be in a physical relationship. I just think Sulfin has an unrequited romantic love for Lysaer. Lysaer might not even be aware of it. In a more sinister portrayal, though, he could oh so easily use it to manipulate him. Also, that's a really good point as to whether Sulfin himself might be gay but unaware of it / never having confronted it.
Mr. Coventry, I'm not entirely certain what you mean by "push[ing] questions of homosexuality into every arena". Obviously, the initial post was only my own interpretation, but I made it simply *because* I saw the potential presence of these themes, and thought some analysis might draw them out. I saw Sulfin Evend and Davien from the beginning as gay, and wanted to discuss that. Perhaps my own interpretation put more there than might exist (though I don't think so), but you certainly can't deny that the references (which I quoted) exist in the text.
Also, if I might ask, is it that you find pushy portrayals of anything you perceive as unrelated to a subject to be distasteful (eg racial equality, feminism, or globalisation getting shoehorned into an unrelated text), or is it homosexuality questions in particular? If you clarified your position a bit more, I might be better able to respond to your criticism.
I'm really grateful for all the responses and the way you guys are discussing this. Thanks so much!
originally posted by DarthJazy
Stephen the Mercedes Lackey story your are thinking of is not a short story. The character in question is in the last 9 books of her acclaim Heralds of Valdemar series. The character is a Hawk brother adept named firesong and the mage sword Need makes that claim. Since she is only able to be carried and used by a woman for womans need everyone was shocked that firesong be it gay is still male and she says he is perfectly balanced between his male and female sides.
originally posted by Stephen Kenneally
DarthJazy, I know about Need and Firesong, having read the entire Heralds of Valdemar series, but I was actually thinking of a different short story, which escapes me at the moment.
Thanks for pointing out the more obvious and important reference, though! I can't believe I didn't think of that one.
originally posted by Lyssabits
My only distaste arising from the present day tendency to push questions of homosexuality into every arena is that it's at all necessary, that anyone even *cares* what someone else's sexuality is.
Can I just say, even though the Mercedes Lackey discussion is sort of a tangent… I think it's kind of weird that a sword that can only be used by a woman is able to be used by a gay man. I would be insulted by the insinuation that somehow a gay man is equal to a woman except for that statement that his male and female sides are balanced… except now I find THAT sort of insulting. I say this having never read the stories, so it's entirely likely I'm missing something here…
Either you're a man or a woman and those things mean something regardless of your sexuality (so a guy, gay or not, shouldn't be able to wield a female-only sword)… or (my preference) you're a person, who has certain aspects and characteristics that are characteristic only of being a PERSON, and whether or not you're at peace with who you are would sort of determine how "balanced" you are, rather than whether you're equally male or female. (Which means every balanced person should be able to wield that sword… seriously, if a sword is female only why would having a perfectly balanced aura or whatever mean anything? It should still require a woman, right? Or maybe if it was a transgendered man… I could see THAT working…) Does that make any sense? I really get irritated with this whole notion of male and female characteristics because it convinces women that they shouldn't be aggressive and men that they're wusses if they're nurturing.
I guess it's hard in this day and age to know what it means to be a man or a woman. I'm not sure I care, really, I can hang my personal identity on other things than my gender, but I know for some people it's important to know what your role is.
originally posted by Clansman
Hmmmm. I agree with Lyssabits entirely. I don't care about a person's sexual orientation. I am happily married, so it doesn't matter to me who a person is looking at or fondling. In fact, with governments of the west removing themselves from the boudoirs of their citizens, I have never understood the reverse tendency with society, to air everything that should (in my personal opinion) be one's own business.
Were I to speculate on Derek's statement, one must admit that sexuality has become very political, and the politics often exceeds different societal segments' ability to understand the need for some to examine these kinds of issues in many different areas. Whether it is feminism or homosexuality, virtually every area of life has gone under the microscope in recent years, and once in a while, a person's eyes inevitably roll and a "who cares!" slips out, no matter how sensitive they might be to others' need to be recognized for who they are. The pendulum is not centered in the issue of sexual politics, and probably won't be for some time, so this is bound to occur. However, sometimes, as Freud said, a cigar is just a cigar. I didn't see any homosexual issues in WoLaS, and I am afraid that I still don't. I agree with Meredith and Lyssabits in that regard. With Sulfin Evend, I submit that he is simply a dedicated and loyal friend who loves Lysaer with everything but his sex. And we just haven't seen enough of Davien prior to SF to really know much about him at all. And, I haven't finished SF (darn kids!).
I submit that you do not need sexual tension every second page in order to have a good story, and Janny proves that. In fact, Janny has not paid a lot of attention to sex in this series, given that we have had eight long books to read, and only a few sexual encounters (three, I think, except for off-the-cuff references to Dakar's exploits, and Mearn s'Brydion, though I could be way off on this). Contrast that with A Song of Ice and Fire, where you have an almost pornographic scene every hundred pages or so.
I guess it is a matter of perspective, as I am not homosexual and it is not an issue that I go looking for when I am reading fantasy fiction. However, were I so, it might have jumped out at me. I will never know.
This perspective issue can only be settled by the author. Janny, did you intend to explore issues of homosexuality regarding the LotMB and free will, and balance, et cetera? How does it fit in with Athera? Or is this thread just way off whatever you originally intended?
CUE JANNY! Janny! Janny?
Darn it, where has she got to? Maybe she's on that ship again, reefing topsails and such…
originally posted by Derek Coventry
Thank you Clansman and Lyssabits, you have both expressed opinions that I share far better than I could
Well, people, You Asked.
This story is all about multiple viewpoints, being colored by individual angles of belief. As the prologue gives fair warning. People will see what they are inclined to. And this is quite fine. The characters in the tale do that, too, via their own personal biases.
Where issues of sexuality have been pertinent to the STORY, I have, I think, rather unflinchingly and explicitly portrayed them on page, given, one hopes, a measure of tasteful tact.
What counts here, is the heart in the scene. Where the characters come from the heart. Period. The rest is open to conjecture. If it was pertinent to the story itself, it would not be left to supposition.
Concerning Atheran human society/societies in general - this is not earth!!! The biases do not match. Humanity on Athera originated (slight historic spoiler here!) as a refugee, spacefaring culture, cast out at the wits end of their resources - certain sociological tendences would remain, descended from that context, and certain socialogical tendencies would differ from ours, in whatever Earth-based bias a reader may bring, because evolution of ideas will have happened.
More, there are layers of social context in this story - which one are you asking about? Town? Clan? Desert tribal? Paravian? White Brotherhood of Ath's Adepts???
It has been asked directly here - about how the Law of the Major Balance would regard/define a violation on ANY "sexual" issue - and that's pretty clean cut logic - the answer would bear only on one point: whether free will consent was present in a harmless exchange between INFORMED adult parties - or not.
Given the hot topic in our real world, I applaud all the posters here who are being tolerantly careful to respect the points of view of others. It's awesome that these sensitive differences of opinion can be discussed in an unthreatening manner.
I forgot to add - Prandeys are gelded - and the ugly practice of male mutilation colors that linguistic term.
Additionally - make of this what you will - I personally do not believe that issues of sexuality are in the least necessary to form a deep relationship.
originally posted by DarthJazy
Wow that was the best explanation of a discussion I have ever seen without actually leaning to one side or the other of the discussion at hand.
*applaud*
Truly, after a book leaves the author's hands, the experience becomes the reader's own.
Far be it from me to feel it necessary to steer that…the value in any story is what it stirs in response, and the relevance of each individual's personal experience.
originally posted by Stephen Kenneally
Thanks very much for that, Janny. DarthJazy said pretty much everything I would, so I'll just applaud along with them.
*applauds*
originally posted by hosanna
I've always assumed that Luhaine and Kharadmon were a "happy" couple. I had also started to pick up things about Davien in recent readings. I felt that Sulfin Evend had been written straight.
Having said that, I'm one of the people who is convinced that Sam was in love with Froddo and the bit about him marrying when he got back was just tacked on for 'cover'.