originally posted by Sleo
Merry Christmas to all from Connecticut, USA!
originally posted by Chana
-Janny
I have a question about Elaira and the Biedar:
Why did Elaira refuse to be freed from her oath to the order when it was offered?
I figured she would jump at such an opportunity.
And what is going on with her crystal?
originally posted by David Gardner
I'm not Janny, and sometimes my recollection is a bit fuzzy, but I'll answer anyway:
VAGUE YET POSSIBLE SPOILER
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It's not that she doesn't want to be freed, it's that because her crystal chooses of its own free will to serve the Order Elaira doesn't want it to suffer the "consequences" that the freeing would result in.
Chana - you asked.
SPOILER WARNING!
The reason Elaira did not accept was because her personal crystal WOULD HAVE BECOME DESTROYED.
It chose to serve HER, and chose to return to the Koriani Order - there is an UNKNOWN reason for this - that not even Sethvir can fathom.
Elaira chose to honor its BEING and its free choice - not to betray that loyalty, that was given to her in trust, even though this is a mineral being, she has become advanced enough in awareness (from her time with Ath's Adepts) to honor its living consciousness. If the crystal that houses that INDIVIDUAL consciousness shatters, it could express in Athera, and no one knows what untold consequence that might have.
originally posted by Chana
Thank you for answering my question. It's much clearer to me now.
Okay, since I think I understand the story a little better I feel (somewhat) qualified to voice an opinion: I think Elaira's priorities are a little mixed up - Arithon's safety versus a mineral's existance? Yes, I know the crystal is supposedly loyal to her, but if she were freed from her oath it could only have a positive effect, regardless of a mineral's wellbeing. And what difference does it make if Selidie acts outside of the compact anyway?
I don't know - maybe i'm not open minded enough to get the whole concept of inanimate objects having free will.
I just want Elaira out from under the prime's will - this heartache thing is getting old (250 years old to be precise).
Anyways thanks again! My heartstrings are definitely getting a workout 
originally posted by Annette
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
Since the crystal would have had some reason for it's decision, probably betraying that trust would not have a positive effect. Also having studied under Ath's adepts and learnt the importance of the Law of the Major Balance and how all forms of consciousness are equally as important, it would seem Elaira would be the last person to sacrifice one loyal to her in order to gain her freedom from her Koriani oath. Being free of her oath would not guarantee Arithon's safety anyway, she would still not be able to help him.
When Elaira was undergoing crystal resonance realignment for her longevity (before it was erased by Luhaine) Elaira seemed to be both reliving her past, and living through future events, which she could not remember on waking. Perhaps the crystal knows Elaira's future and that she needs to remain Koriani in order to get what she wants. Elaira seems to be more capable of standing up for her rights now anyway, so might start giving Selidie a bit more competition.
Better get those heartstrings toughened up a bit Chana, Janny will be really playing the heartstrings with Destiny's Conflict.
originally posted by tony
Okay, one comment, one question.
Comment - Long time reader, obsolutely love this series, and have been with it from nearly the beginning. The story is great, and Janny, your writing is fantastic.
Question - sorry for this, but I seem to be the only one lost. I've read through all the spoiler threads, and have seen maybe 2 other people question this, but with no clear answer.
What happened to result in Arithon's captivity, and what does it have to do with Athir? (okay, call it a 2-part question).
Characters refer to the events at Athir, and Dakar swearing oath of debt on behalf of the Crown at that time. I did not see this in my copy of Stormed Fortress, or I completely missed it.
Also, Arithon was seemingly remanded into Korathain custody at Jeynsa's wedding. Do we have any idea how or why? And how does that implicate the Oath of Debt Dakar apparently swore, and how does that result in the F7 not assisting the sanctioned Crown Prince of Rathain, either during his captivity or after?
Loved the book. Thoroughly enjoyed reading it. However, having some serious problems with this issue - kept looking for an explanation, and can't find one.
Help?
originally posted by Nikki Hayes
@tony - I can answer one of those questions for you, the events at Athir took place at the very end of Stormed Fortress. After Elaira, Dakar, Glendien and Parrien escaped with Arithon by boat following the siege at Alestron, they landed at Athir and that is where Elaira spirit walked and put her consciousness into Glendien's body to try and bring Arithon back from where his consciousness was drifting, she asked Dakar to swear oath of debt to the CROWN of Rathain rather than Arithon personally as she had to use some of her order's knowledge in the process. At the crux, she was helped by the Biedar tribes to recall Arithon and their lovemaking resulted in Glendien being pregnant, Arithon knew nothing about this and still doesn't. Stormed Fortress ended when Arithon and Elaira sailed on his ship and Dakar returned to Asandir's service.
The captivity of Arithon is something that happened some time after the end of Stormed Fortress, in that huge period of around 250 years that is completely missing from Initiate's trial, Janny said previously that there will not be any further information about what happened until the next novel.
The 250 year gap annoyed me as well, for the first time it felt unsatisfying to read one of Janny's books. There have been time skips previously in the series, ranging from weeks to a few years, but we knew what (if anything) happened during those periods and it didn't involve almost all the old characters having been killed off by a massive time jump. The book is good in itself but I would have far preferred it to continue in a linear fashion rather than the snippets of information recalled by various people such as Dakar and Elaira about how Arithon came to be captured. Just a prologue explaining the events leading to his capture would have sufficed.
originally posted by tony
@Nikki - thanks for answering. Since my post, I'd been scouring the end of SF (quite a bit, since it's a good read). With your prompting to the right spot, I did find that section. So perhaps my memory is going.
However, I don't see how that leads to what we got in Initiate's Trial. I suppose, if Janny says we won't get more until the next book, I'll remain completely confused until the next book is released. It doesn't help that the references to Athir seem to imply (to me, anyway) that people think it's Dakar's fault. He did what was requested by Elaira - he even specifically told her he couldn't tell if there would be problems.
But, again, thanks for answering. I appreciate it.
If anyone else has something else that can perhaps help straighten me out, I'd be grateful.
originally posted by Annette
I believe Dakar got the blame for the oath of debt, because if he had not rashly made that sly deal with Glendien, Elaira would not have reacted as she did. Dakar did not act as Arithon's friend making that deal. I also did not really see how that could have worked differently though, since Elaira would have still needed to use Koriani knowledge, maybe it was that the debt was against Rathain that made the difference and involved the Fellowship, rather than a personal debt. It would seem if Dakar had not sworn oath of debt Teylia would have still become Koriani, but would not have had to die in order to save Arithon.
As to the big jump in time, Arithon and Elaira were sort of on hold, Dakar was being a good apprentice and we can work out what Lysaer was doing so better to jump forward to where something significant happened with the main characters. And leave us hanging in suspense for the revelation of how Arithon finally got caught in the next book, we find out when Arithon does. Presumably we get to read about the past event before Janny puts Arithon through the wringer again in the present. From what we got in the previous books, I am curious to see if Sevrand survived to lead a happy life with Jeynsa, there was a hint in Stormed Fortress he might not, which could explain why all the current s'Valerient's we know of come from Barach's lineage.
originally posted by Chana
Re the time jump:
I feel obligated to acknowledge the brilliance of this arc's setup: we the readers got to experience exactly what Arithon was going through - memory loss. Neither of us had any idea what was going on. One of the many things I appreciate in Janny's writing is her ability to make me feel -physically- what her characters feel. Did anyone else get dizzy or nauseous the last time Dakar was completely drunk?And how about during that iyat storm in Traiter's Knot? Who took a nap after reading about Arithon's exhaustion?
Nikki - if you're annoyed because you don't know exactly what happened between books…imagine how Arithon must feel! He doesn't know anything and people are still trying to kill him. I think we'll all find out exactly what happened as Arithon does.
Janny - Initiate's Trial was an amazing read!! Kudos on a brilliant plot and unbelievably vivid characters.
originally posted by tony
@ Annette - thank you for responding.
I think Dakar got a bad rap, personally. I mean, they had limited options there - sit, wait and do nothing; let Glendian act on her own; do what they did - which was at Elaira's suggestion; do something else. Nobody had any others ideas for the "anything else", so I don't think that's an option.
I guess what's really confusing me is how an oath of Debt owed to the Koriani by the Crown can come to infringe on Arithon's PERSONAL freedom - his freedom from imprisonment, and his freedom to live. Seems somewhat counter to the LotMB, to me.
Re the time jump - I don't mind the jump, per se. I understand this series spans at least 500 years, and we're not going to see every day of that time (that would obviously be unworkable). And I might have been okay with, as Chana suggests, learning as Arithon does, in essence. Except for that fact that we spend time with Asandir, and Sethvir, Elaira, and with the clans of Rathain, etc., and we learn information that Arithon doesn't know. But what we learn is just enough to tell us something significant - and at odds with how SF ended and with (my personal) understanding of the LotMB - occurred, but not what it was, barely when, and certainly not how or why.
It just - leaves me wanting.
originally posted by Annette
But the oath to the crown never had any effect on Arithon's freedom, Selidie used it to prevent the Fellowship from interfering and protecting him, since she maintained she had the right to kill him. She was only interested in keeping Arithon alive if she could use his life as the leverage to get the Koriani released from the compact. Arithon was imprisoned the usual way, betrayal, brute force and Selidie seems to have used his love for Elaira against him, by threatening her life. What else happened remains to be seen. Arithon I would think had to agree to something there, or since Elaira had his permission to act on his behalf, maybe she did to save him. I think it likely Arithon was willing to die though, and Dakar and the Fellowship sold him out. Arithon had sworn oath to survive no matter the cost though, so Dakar would have been in the right acting on behalf of the Fellowship there. Arithon was needed to deal with Marak's wraiths, and at least while he was alive there was hope of getting him back once he had finished the job. Although it seems strange it only took 250 odd years to redeem 2 planets worth of wraiths. It is mentioned in IT that there were millions of them, so Arithon must have been very busy.
originally posted by tony
But part of my problem is, we don't know how he was imprisoned. Sure, it seems like there was a betrayal, but by whom we don't know, although the suspects seem to be Dakar and/or Eriegal (sp?).
And here's my problem . .even if captured, Arithon would have the right to request Fellowship assistance - any clansman would, if I understand correctly, and Arithon, as Crown Prince, moreso. As you point our, Dakar should have had the right to do so on his behalf, and Elaira as well, along with - probably - the Cathdein of Rathain.
I fail to see how Selidie could use an Oath of Debt against the Crown to prevent assistance to a Crown Prince.
"We have him, we're going to kill him"
"F7, assist me/him in getting free"
"You can't do that, the Crown owes me!"
"Oh, okay, since the Crown owes you, we'll let you kill this individual in direct contravention of his personal will and freedom"
I don't see it.
Yes, some deal was struck where the Koriani wouldn't kill him until the wraiths were dealt with, but unless Arithon agreed to captivity - and death - I don't see how the Oath owed by the Crown would prevent assistance.
And I don't think Arithon COULD have agreed to be killed under any circumstances - the blood oath he swore to Asandir would prevent it, no?
originally posted by Sleo
Tony - if you read the scene at Athir very carefully, you can see where Dakar left out important bits in the guards set around Elaira, Glendein, and Arithon while the awakening went on. Thus, Dakar was at fault. While we are not yet privy to the whole thing, there are bits and pieces to piece together:
Dakar is the fall guy because the F7 need him to interfere with the Koriani to protect Arithon and to protect Athera. They cannot interfere at all because of Asandir's oath to Selidie. The whole thing is a sham to allow Arithon to get free of the imprisonment before Selidie finds out what's going on. He falls into the role because of his own guilt. Eriegal was the betrayer at Jeynsa's wedding - if you recall way back in Peril's Gate, he was the one 'Companion' who couldn't forgive Arithon for the loss of his family at Tal Quorin. A bit of the wedding scene is revealed to us in IT - Dakar whispers, 'He wouldn't let me interfere' referring to Arithon, who apparently went willingly into captivity to save Elaira. He also gave her all memories to hold of their relationship (rather unchivalrously IMO).
While I felt some frustration at not being given all of the intervening events, enough was dribbled out in clues, like bread crumbs, to satisfy me and be content that it will all be given to us in good time.
I don't understand Dakar's fear of facing Arithon, however, because a)Arithon has never been overly angry with him even when he might have been, like after Dakar's betrayal at the armory at Alestron back in Ships of Merior. Also because Arithon wouldn't LET Dakar interfere or do anything to keep him from being taken.
I'm not sure I understand your question about his captivity being in violation of the LotMB. Since when has Selidie ever been concerned about that or even obeyed it? She is only interested in breaking the compact with the Paravians and doesn't give two hoots about Athera.
I'm not sure Arithon agreed to be killed; only to be held in captivity. But you have a point there, if he did agree.
At any rate, I'm sure it will all come out in the wash.
originally posted by David Cornelson
So I finished the second, slow read of Initiate's Trial. As is almost always the case with a well-written book, I enjoyed it much more the second time. There are really tightly written parts of the book where Janny sneaks in interesting tidbits that are almost entirely out of context. Such as, when Arithon is kind to the stallion, what does this restore and why?
There are several little one sentence statements like that which are easily missed on a fast read.
But more than anything, you just get a broader vision of the story the second time around. I was able to see the land, the people, and the action much more clearly this time.
Great book…Stormed Fortress is still the best of the series, but Initiate's Trial is excellent in its own right.
Looking forward to the next book…
David C.
There are days when I pull my hair - so many layers. Readers have not discovered them all, not yet…
originally posted by Annette
SPOILERS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS, SPOILERS
I suppose Arithon was originally kind to the stallion and left oats for him because he likes horses and naturally wants to help anyone suffering. That kindness ended up restoring Alithiel into Arithon's possession, as well as giving the stallion some much needed attention and love after he had been abandoned and left to fend for himself. Janny was distracting me though, I might have missed something. I kept wondering what the connection was between Arithon and the stallion, and wondering if Arithon will be getting similar attention when he is free to put Alithiel aside. The vision we saw of his heart's desire did seem to indicate he would.
Earlier when Khadrien had been watching over Esfand we saw three different visions showing horses. Lysaer whipping his flagging horse, the stallion who had willingly sacrificed himself for Asandir, and the exhausted chariot team that Arithon was determined would not be run to their deaths. There was no doubt a point to showing the three different angles, but if Lysaer gets reincarnated as a horse in his next life it will only be fair.
The passage with the horses also had the comment "Chariot horses are schooled in matched teams", which might crop up later with a different angle and meaning. Dharkaron's is a team of five though, and Arithon changing the colour of the team to black hinted at that. Ithamon has five towers when restored, Paravia has five kingdoms, and there are 4 sets of linked worlds and Athera. Might be a connection in there somewhere.
Also I was suspicious Janny might be hinting that a human lineage that had agreed to be in service to fellowship needs might have the last of its line meet a similar fate to the stallions. But then I have been suspicious of Arithon and his destiny for some time. And certainly Janny aided and abetted my suspicions in Initiate's Trial, but still I am in the dark. The light will no doubt dawn in Song of the Mysteries, where hopefully the mysteries of Ath, An, Alt and creation get explained, along with those mysterious Paravians.
originally posted by HJ
Just finished the book. Haven't read anyone else's comments, though I will try to find time to very soon. These thoughts are purely mine.
You said it would deliver, Janny, and it does! Fantastic new characters; a new slant on Arithon's plight - knowing that he's fighting for survival but not yet sure why; new challenges for old characters; the ongoing set of rules for the lives of ordinary folk, now more severely enforced than ever. The bit I've enjoyed most is the re-emergence of Lysaer's character; how hard he's tried to leave the past in the past and simply be a just ruler. The tantalising view you get of him had he not been abandoned as a child and cursed in his formative, first adult years.
I never thought I'd type this but I have loved reading about the real, mature, human Lysaer and it goves me much hope that somehow he will achieve redemption and be rid of the curse, finally.
Of course, I've adored reading about Arithon too. Loved the last passage with the hint of the hand taking hold of the sword carried by the black stallion. Here we go - come on!!!
Wow, Janny. Quick as you like with the next one!!
x x x HJ x x x
Hi HJ - great to see you here, and thanks for the snippets of feedback. First books in an arc can be FRUSTRATING, mostly because they are set up for the really juicy stuff that converges into the finale. It really is nice to see so many patient readers here who are looking at the nuance that will ignite the explosion to come.
Posts like these reward the sustained effort in ways perhaps you may never know. Thanks!