originally posted by Auna
This is why I love this particular snippet. It's not painful enough to send people with knives on a stabbing spree, but it does send us on a treasure hunt through the past material to figure out if there was any whisp of a hint about what happened 200 years ago that involved Fellowship and Koriani.
originally posted by Auna
hmm… "She had cornered HIS game…" A reference to Arithon?
originally posted by Hunter
I'm thinking that Initiate's trial is set over 200 years *after* the end of SF. Simply, if there had been a bitter defeat of the Fellowship by the Koriani, Morriel/Selidie's actions would have been very different, as would have been their interactions. For example, a bitter defeat before the conquest of the Mistwraith would have altered the meeting of Morriel at Althain.
200+ years later, the key characters are still around - Arithon, Elaira and Lysaer; the Koriathain and the Fellowship/Dakar/Verrain. The s'Brydion have served their purpose, the Alliance is broken. Arithon now has an heir, whom will presumably beget more heirs so the s'Ffalenn line is secured.
Elaira invoked a Koriani obligation on the Crown of Rathain (not Arithon) during the conception scene to recall Arithon. So there is a foothold. We also don't know what Selidie might do with or to Elaira that might cause Arithon to act or submit, threatening the Black Rose Prophecy, Paravian survival and so on.
After all, Morriel/Selidie has had her fingers singed (literally and figuratively) in every scrape with the Fellowship and Arithon throughout the series. The possible exception being her lane flux attack on Asandir. At some point, she has to win, or think she's won. It may also take her 200 years to work out how to get the stray iyat out of the Great Waystone!
In SF we finally saw the actual circumstances of Davien's discorporation. I would think relevant backhistory from shortly after SF ends would be told in snippets or exposition as required.
originally posted by Brittani
I don't know. 200 years of extemely action packed history to have to tell via flash backs sounds hard. Otherwise we completely loose Sulfin Evend and several other well developed characters.
Janny may not have told us about the "secret" agreement between the Koriathain and the F7. I mean it was a "secret". And besides when have we ever been told every fun little tid bit that would eventually be interesting. I mean if we knew everything then nothing would be a surprise.
originally posted by Lyssabits
Well, we lost Feylind in SF, and unlike television series, there are no contracts to break. 
So I don't find it hard to believe that it's possible for us to be jumping two hundred years into the future if the only argument against it is that we'd lose Sulfin Evend.
On the other hand, I DO find it hard to believe that we wouldn't be allowed to witness Arithon's discovery of his daughter's existence in real-time, nor that even the Fellowship could keep her a secret for 200 years. So the idea that the next book is all flashbacks is a bit hard to swallow as well.
However I honestly can't think of what this bitter defeat would have been. I wouldn't mind a jump, and the beginning of the book is a logical place to put one… but it seems hard, given how many loose threads there were at the end of SF there that we could successfully jump without needing to backfill in the story. And if suddenly some event from before Mistwraith is being brought up that we've had no hint of before, well, ret conning usually leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Though I wouldn't put it past Janny to have left hints that none of us have picked up on before now.
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
Well, personally I don't think the fact that we here can't think of what The Bitter Defeat might be means that it has to happen in the future (meaning, after the close of SF).
We have collectively been surprised and blind-sided by previous information we didn't know about. It's not unprecedented.
We didn't know about the bargain between Davien/Seshkrozchiel (sp?) or the manner of Davien's discorporation. We were all surprised by the full extent of the necromancer machinations (though Janny I think has indicated that we should have seen that coming). I mean… there have been many times when Janny introduces new info into the series. We don't know everything. In fact, I think we know only the tip of the iceberg.
So my point is that The Bitter Defeat could indeed have happened 200+ years prior to (approx) the end of SF. Just because we don't know what it could be, doesn't mean it isn't there.
I also agree with others who feel that many of the characters that have been thoroughly developed should/would not be just dropped. Sulfin Evend for one. His character has grown and been built up, for a purpose I believe, and I don't think he has fulfilled it yet. The subplot of Arithon's daughter for another. Like Lyssabits, I just can't imagine a scenario wherein, maybe Elaira or one of the F7 says to Arithon "Gee, remember how P.O.'d you were when you found out you had a daughter? And remember how important her birth was to the Fellowship, Sanpashir Tribes, and Koriathain? She was swell. Too bad she died. But at least now you have tons of great-great-grandchildren running around! Good times…"
I also agree with Lyssabits that there are probably hints in the interactions and POVs of the Fellowship/Koriathain about this but that we just were oblivious to before. Like the Kralovir.
There was also indication at the end of SF that the Fellowship were pretty much maxed out on tolerance for the Koriathain's shenanigans. So perhaps this is the culmination of that.
Another possibility is that the book could start out soon after SF ends, and maybe The Bitter Defeat occurs, and then we jump ahead a few centuries to this scene. Janny has made big time jumps in previous installments–but, granted, not THIS big. (Anyhow, I expected Initiate's Trial's start to have moved forward at least, I don't know… anywhere from 5-20 years from the end of SF, just so we can get into the action with Arithon's daughter right away and not have to wait for her to, say, learn how to walk and talk.)
*sigh* It's so fun to speculate, but it's so frustrating that no matter how logical our reasonings are, Janny seems to just be one step ahead of us.
Mer
originally posted by Greebo
Belatedly I stroll in to join the fun…well that was an intriguing little snippet.
My guess, off the top of my head, the "bitter defeat/ancient score" is set before SF and is something not yet detailed - something to do with the Great Waystone maybe? Unfortunately I have a terrible memory so sharper minds than mine will no doubt set me straight.
originally posted by Hunter
This is indeed a fun discussion…
I quite like Sulfin Evend as a character, but I think he too has reached his useful life as a sidebar character in this series. Sulfin Evend had two key roles to fulfil in SF - which he did - and hence his contributions are completed. The key roles were what he did when confronted by the injured Arithon in the ship escaping Alestron (as the Biedar said he would have an option) and secondly, and most importantly, he was the spark that allowed Lysaer to gain a foothold on his sanity, repel the Curse and begin his path towards countering the Curse and indeed, potentially, much of the damage he has done with his Alliance.
We have lost many characters who fulfilled a function - Steiven, Dania, Jieret, Fionn Areth, even perhaps Parrien. Cattrick… the list goes on. If Sulfin Evend, or even Arithon's unborn daughter were blindingly critical to the series, they would have come along far earlier in the picture and been central characters.
I don't want these subsidiary characters along - hence moving 200 years into the future is good way of cleaning out the supporting cast from the Alliance battles and allow the final two Arcs to concentrate on the major unresolved issues in the series - which were all raised in one form or another in Curse. These include:
- The resolution of Desh-thiere which is still in Rockfell
- The defence or otherwise against further incursions from Marak (which was always a matter of when, not if, they came)
- The return of the Paravians
- Restoration of the Fellowship to Seven (i.e. Ciladis' return)
- potential for humanity to retun to other worlds (in which I think Lysaer is a key character to lead humanity off Athera to a new existence)
- resolution of whether the Koriathain can recover their original founding purpose or be part of the move to restore humanity to space faring travel.
A clarification - I mentioned that *relevant* bits from past history might revisited - not a complete re-run of historical snippets.
That Arithon is never to know he has a daughter rather indicates her path is not to be a s'Ffalenn… One wonders whether she may re-found the royal line in Shand (but that is another issue).
Ultimately, I would be very disappointed if Arc IV only started generation after SF. There are another 450 years of the Five Centuries Fountain… we can't spend the entire series in the first 50 years of this…
This of course, is all wild speculation on my part, only Janny knows for sure…
originally posted by Iris
My first thought was that the failure referred to here was the failure of the F7 to return the Paravians to Athera - which the Prime may interpret (did I read this in SF??) as negating the need for the compact…
Iris
originally posted by Neil
Apologies for being flippant above concerning said pub date of next WoLaS book I did figure it would be sooner, hence the joke (if one can call it that…) I hope to read the next book before I am 40.
Agree with Hunter. There are way too many big issues still left.
Arithon could deal with the free wraiths apparently…there are at least 3 hints.
"Desh-thiere" the paravians were unwilling to Name this.
"potential for humanity to retun to other worlds" …hmm… I don't believe humans will be building spaceships quite yet. Daviens point was that Atheran humanity needs to *learn* to respect the higher freqiencies. The other F6 did not want humanity going off world…e.g. Ciladas: "reconciled solution" when Davien voted to send them packing). Maybe we'll see what is through the other gates though (other "release valves" as part of the compact, I think Janny called them?).
"Koriathain can recover…" - Arithon is still tagged as their nemesis…the biedar are "awakened" and seem to have bided their time thus far…patient bunch…perhaps because Arithon was seen as key.
My fear is that Arithon may succeed in helping restore the paravians but fall along the way…he may never know his daughter if she lives less than 500 years…the F7 know how to keep secrets…if he found out retrospectively, i.e. decades later…this might irritate him just a bit into an anti-F7 strategy. Humanity and F7 on athera cannot exist together long term …there has to be an expiry date so to speak sooner or later.
The religion may attack Ath's adepts and Havish at some point.
originally posted by Lisa
"If you have not read Stormed Fortress, there be SPOILERS here!!!"
What spoilers do you think Janny is reffering to?? The only thing i can think of is perhaps
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maybe the fact that Asandir is there and not stuck in the grimward like he was at the end of TK
originally posted by Clansman
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Lisa, I do believe you are correct. Asandir was in dire peril at the end of TK, and for much of SF. I for one can't see any other spoiler in the so very brief snippet that we were allowed to see. (SOB!)
Anyway, back to speculation! Hunter has often shown a great deal of canniness in speculation. However, the loss of Sulfin Evend would be momentous. He is now a major character, and just glossing over the rest of his life (I believe he is relatively young (30-ish)) is not likely. I mean, Arc III took five huge novels to complete, so that all the ends would be tied up. I cannot see Sulfin Evend being ended as a footnote or a brief conversation in Initiate Trial (hereinafter "IT"). Janny doesn't leave danglers like that. All of the names Hunter cited had a described, real time (insofar as the story is concerned) death, not a death that occurred sometime in the past.
This being said, maybe Janny'll jump around the timeline a bit, but she hasn't done that yet, so I don't expect it now. Perhaps this meeting is set throughout the book, with flashbacks occurring over the past 200 years to bring the story up to the present.
So maybe Hunter and Meredith are both right.
It is the Bitter Defeat that is the key. Must start re-reading series…
originally posted by Zorana Lewis
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Here is a quote right from the end of SF:
Spring 5672
"Far south, amid the black sands of Sanpashir, on the dark moon fallen nearest the spring equinox, the eldest of the Biedar unsheathes an ancient flint knife to cut the birth-cord of an infant successor; and her words, in thick dialect, charge the child to watch over the one names as Mother Dark's Chosen through the trials of the next generation."
Now, the way I interpret that is that the infant is Arithon's daughter, and she has been told to watch over Arithon, whom we know is Mother Dark's Chosen.
The 'trials of the next generation' would suggest that the Biedar at least know or suspect that something big is going to happen in relation to Arithon in his daughter's life…which is the 'next generation' bit, which could, (unless she is given longevity training - which is a possibility as it has been agreed she will be under the care of the F7 for a time) argue that there has been no major jump forward in time, and suggest for of a gentle couple of decades jump.
Now, the next bit, in which Sethvir and the Biedar eldest have a little 'chat', in which the following is said:
By Sethvir: "My oath rests, that the father must never hear of the birth, or acknowledge the daughter delivered from this night's mating…You would not intervene, but through dire necessity."
By the Eldest: "This child shall come to spare her father, one day, dispossessed of his knowledge of her paternity."
Sethvir's reply: "Then, madam, I beg that you ask for such grace. In free will, by her royal gift of compassion, let Arithon's daughter choose for herself when the time comes to shoulder her fate."
It is obvious, that neither the Biedar, or the F7 want Arithon aware of her, so, as Hunter said, she does not sound destined for s'Ffalenn rule. But, by that little exchange between the two, it sounds to me as though she isn't destined for rule in Shand either.
This sounds cruel, but in my opinion, it sounds as though she was born to die, to save her father's life. I come to this conclusion through the fact that the Eldest says she will come to spare her father.
From what?
The only thing he could possibly want sparing from at this moment in time is the responsibility of crown rule, and as F7 say her paternity cannot be revealed, she won't be sparing him of that.
*shrugs* Just my thoughts. Though I really need to read the books thoroughly.
originally posted by Trys
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Zorana,
The one thing you didn't address was 'successor'. If the child is to become the successor of the 'eldest of the Biedar' and there has been some indication that the eldest has been watching over 'Mother Dark's Chosen' is it likely/possible that the successor to the Biedar is out-tribe?
I suppose it is, but I just wanted to play "devil's advocate". 
Trys
originally posted by Zorana Lewis
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Trys - I'll agree; it's likely she will succeed the 'eldest of the Biedar', but more in the sense of her becoming the main person to watch over the 'Mother Dark's Chosen'. According to this quote (pg 526):
"The time and the hour had been her kept charge, since her affirmation as keeper of Mother Dark's Chosen."
It sounds like AD (Arithon's Daughter) could potentially be the successor to this unenviable position.
And play away. I love Devil's advocates - always good to hear other opinions/ perspectives.
[edited a rather daft spelling error]
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
I'll put SPOILER space for SF, even though we've been pretty much gung-ho the entire thread.
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I don't believe that the infant who is being born at the end of SF is Arithon's daughter at all. IIRC from when I finished reading the book, the timing of that birth would not coincide with Glendien's necessary 9-month gestation period. When I read SF, I remember being really confused by the dates "Spring 5672". Because that's, like, right after the scene with Glendien still at Althain, is it not? Someone would have to check the dates, because I don't have the book to hand. But I remember commenting about it here in the chat at the time.
Anyhow, I take that infant successor to be the Eldest's successor from within the tribes there (presumably, she's of the Biedar, though it's not mentioned), destined to be the new "Eldest" of the Biedar and to watch over Arithon through the trials of the "next generation", unrelated to Glendien or Arithon's daughter at all.
OK, this is what I wrote in another thread after I just finished SF:
*Oh, and speaking of the last triplet. At first I assumed the child being born was Arithon's daughter. But the timing isn't right. Because the Concatenation chapter occurred in Winter (not even EARLY Winter like some of the earlier chapters were), and the last triplet with the cutting of the birth-cord of the "infant successor" is supposedly in Spring. So at MOST that would be six months. Granted I have never carried or birthed a child myself, but isn't normal gestation 9 months? And I was confused as to why/how Glendien was suddenly in Sanpashir. So my conclusion is that the child is the Biedar Eldest's successor, to "watch over" Arithon in his coming trials. Maybe this was obvious to everyone else but me, IDK. I had to read it a few times to understand what was going on. *
So I think just from the dates it's pretty much impossible for that child to have been Arithon's daughter being born.
But you do bring up an interesting point that just from that triplet, mentioning watching over Arithon through the trials of the "next generation" seems to be a set-up that we will be able to see some of those trials, so Initiate's Trial could very well begin sometime within that designated "next generation" time frame.
As Hunter says, fun speculation. But, as always when speculating on Janny's books, we are all just banging around in the dark, knocking our shins on the furniture and stubbing our toes.
Mer
originally posted by Meredith Lee Gray
Oh, and I did want to say in all fairness and objectivity, that the more I thought about it, the more I did acknowledge the point that some, like Hunter and others in the "let's jump ahead a few centuries" camp had made, regarding characters that have fulfilled their purpose.
Sulfin Evend is the main player of whom it's debatable if he's outlived his usefulness (so to speak). Yes, he did some important things in SF, and I suppose you could end it there. But I do feel in my gut that he has an even more important role to play–possibly with Arithon, but especially with Lysaer of course. It seems like there may even have been foreshadowing to suggest such, but from memory I can't dredge anything up.
Then you have Jeynsa, but she seems to have come to terms and moved on with her life, and I don't think we have anyone at all in the Rathain clans that have any especial tie to Arithon. They seem to be set for now.
Kyrialt, Parrien s'Brydion, Fionn Areth, Feylind, and Vhandon are all unfortunately deceased.
There's Talvish, whom I love as a character, but unfortunately is still expendable. There's Fiark, but he doesn't seem to be destined for any huge fate, useful as he is. Erlien is certainly entertaining, but already pretty old, and he has never shown any interest in doing much else besides protect his feal following (understandable).
The s'Brydions have become an ineffective ally for Arithon now, what with their lack of a fortress and considerably less of an armed fighting force.
Glendien's purpose seems to pretty much be to give birth and possibly nurture Arithon's daughter a bit. But beyond that, is there any indication of a greater destiny?
We have Lirenda, but she seems pretty well truly trapped in her useless position, and anyhow she should have the extended lifespan to survive 200 years.
There's Kevor and Ellaine, and their ultimate fate seems much of a mystery to me. Would their life expectancy be any longer dwelling with the Adepts? I don't think there's been any indication. Is their destiny completely sealed to just stay where they are until they eventually die in peace? Or was there something mentioned in the books about the possibility of Kevor to return from the groves and interact with his father in some important way? Or was this just speculation on this site? Or maybe I'm just off my rocker.
Then of course there's Arithon's daughter. The F7 and Biedar seem fairly certain that Arithon should know nothing about her. But is this just their intention (which can always go awry), or is it some sort of prophetic declaration? In any case, it seems she does have a destiny. "This child shall come to spare her father, one day, dispossessed of his knowledge of her paternity." It is possible that this could be some obscure rendering, wherein one of her great-great-great-grandchildren does something for Arithon at some time in the far future… but I rather think it's more of a one-on-one, deliberate type "sparing".
But otherwise, I think almost all the other characters have extended lifespans and would thus still be around 200+ years in the future.
So anyhow. The point of this long rambling is just that yes, many of the characters could be theoretically dropped–in the sense of their mortality finally catching up with them–and having the story advance.
But I still think Initiate's Trial will start shortly after SF ended. Within a few decades at least.
originally posted by Trys
Spoiler messages are very much required as this is not even in the SF spoiler topic.
I've renamed the thread to indicate that there are spoilers in here but please use the standard SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER all on one line please.
(Message edited by admin on April 23, 2008)
originally posted by Neil
I wonder whether trial could be a trial as in a law court?
As an aside: Davien told Arithon that the end never justified the means. The F7 means are certainly questionable several times in the story as far short term goes…and I suppose if they explained their reasoning it would nullify their intent sometimes.
originally posted by Julie
The way I read the infant Biedar is just as it says- the seer to watch over a prophesy fullfilled-Mother Dark's child (Arithon). Now that he is in the world and apparently integral to Biedar they will have watchers for the span of his life.
Sulfin Evand is a much more complex character than Feylind etc. He did not make the choice over Arithon's life in SF. Remember he was attacked by Parrien before he took any real action. The reason for him drawing his blade is not clear. So I imagine the role he will play in affecting future generations(see translation of the Biedar name for him)is yet to happen. I still hope he is eventually offered Fellowship initiate training.
As to the 200 years- It is not clear if Janny refers Seldie's physical state- we know what Morriel did to cheat death, so this scene may not be too far beyond SF.
Thats my 2 cents!