originally posted by Chana
I agree with you completely, but I want to know exactly what their original purpose was, and how they got to where they are today.
It seems to me that permanently tying up someone's free will and putting it in the hands of another person (in this case Morriel) is perverse; even if the Koriani are dedicated to the good of humanity, which they obviously are not.
Also, it's interesting how the F7 strictly respect free will, and Koriani principles are the exact opposite.
I wonder if the Koriani will still be around by the end of the series, and I wonder what would happen if the Waystone were taken into one of Ath's Hostels…
Any Ideas?
originally posted by Hunter
Koriani fully respect free will. Is not fully submitting yourself for your lifetime, unconditionally, an act of free will? Whether the individual is actually capable of understanding the magnitude of their decision is completely another matter. I wouldn't have see Fionn Areth or Elaira were sufficiently mature to understand the ramifications of what they were agreeing to.
The difference is that the Fellowship ask free will each and every time they need something; the Koriani ask once and demand it hold for a lifetime. But both view this as free will… 
originally posted by Salticidae
Chana, in fact it is interesting that the F7 respect free will to such an extent that some knowledge they will not volunteer unless asked for it. In one of the books (can't remember) a sorcerer is hoping that she'll ask a question, which she doesn't.
originally posted by Maggie
Chana brought up a point that got me thinking… the quote:
"My hands, my mind, and my body, are hereby given to enact the will of the Prime Matriarch, WHO'S WHOLE CAUSE IS THE GREATER GOOD OF HUMANITY"
I wonder… If the Prime Matriarch's whole cause is NOT the greater good of humanity, is the whole statement null and void? It could be a qualifier, rather than a description of the person…
That is to say that maybe the words are demanding that the Prime is dedicated to the good of humanity, rather than saying that in general, this describes the Prime.
originally posted by Sandra Jacob
Hunter, if Koriani respect free will, how then explain the way they used the s'Brydion brother (can't remember his name off the top of my head) who led his men in from the sea killing the soldiers of the light when they were no longer wanting to fight under the magic of Alithiel?
And having six year old children make lifetime pledges is purely giving lip service to free will.
I had completely forgotten about Luhaine's intervention with her crystal in Ships! ::clunks self on head::
And the great waystone has been befuddled with an iyat! I LOVED that scene where Arithon sends it right back to her.
originally posted by Hunter
Sandra - similar to how they used a fetch of Lysaer to invoke the Curse in Arithon. They are taking what already exists - a person's free will - and amplify it. The s'Brydion didn't need much prompting to go after the misguided minions of Lysaer.
I don't think I've seen any evidence that the power the Prime has has ever been used for the greater good of humanity (whatever that might be). The greater good of the Koriani sisterhood would seem to be a more logical explanation.
Lysaer is also doing what he does for the greater good of humanity (in his view). Arithon is doing what he's doing for the greater good of Athera, the Paravians, the clans and most likely for the greater good of humanity (and his own sanity and love of Elaira). Yet they are all doing different things for the advantage of those they like and support them and lots of not so good things to those that oppose and disagree with them. So who is right? Is there a right answer? Who decides that?
I'm really looking forward to see how the iyat in the Great Waystone is resolved. I suspect Elaira's personal spell crystal may have a part to play - and potentially Lirenda's as well…
originally posted by Chana
Lysaer's view is flawed by the curse, Arithon's isn't (thanks to Davien).
I feel like I'm stating the obvious.
Also, to clarify an earlier point: Just like the F7 will go out of their way to obtain willing consent, the Koriani would go out of their way to secure an oath of debt. Yes, it can still be considered 'free will' but is it moral/honest? The F7 truly do not wish to violate, while the Koriani are simply looking for ways to trap and manipulate.
Hunter - Would you really defend Lysaer, or the Koriani? or are you simply playing devil's advocate? 
One last thought- Is there a difference between the way a necromancer posseses a body and the way Morriel took over Selidie? I'm asking about the concept, not the method.
originally posted by Hunter
Lysaer's view is *inflamed* by the Curse - not *flawed*… it uses what is there already. Lysaer's background gives the Curse the foothold it needs - what he's doing on Athera is what his family did on Amroth. He thinks he is right (as does Morriel) - the question Janny is asking is for us to understand *why* - not necessarily to agree, but to view the world through multiple lenses.
originally posted by Laneth Sffarlenn
Hunter, thank you for wording it so succinctly!
originally posted by Chana
Are you saying that Lysaer would behave similarly even if he weren't cursed? He definitely had doubts about the clans and F7 in the beginning of CoTM, but usually doubts end up strengthening our original principles, not becoming alternate values. That part was Desh-thiere, not Lysaer.
And I don't think Morriel is worrying about right or wrong at this point. She's too wrapped up in her bid for power.
Your thoughts are VERY clear and insightful
originally posted by Sandra Jacob
Hunter, I see what you're saying about the Koriani taking free will and 'amplifying' it. But at that point it no longer is free will and changes into something else; perhaps enslavement is the word? At one point in the saga I remember Koriani discussing who to peg for some task or other and not being able to find anyone with a flaw they could exploit. This clearly indicates that there needs to be ground for the enslavement of will to take root – and you're right about the s'Brydion not taking much for them to twist.
I think the curse took Lysaer's nature and made it one-sided - successfully wiping out all the parts of him that tempered justice with the other quality he had (what it was escapes me at the moment). The curse in effect wiped out Lysaer's ability to see the other side of things as he is very well able to do in The Curse of the Mistwraith.
As to who is right, it must be the one who is not willing to sacrifice the lives of others to get what he needs, and that is hands down, Arithon. What he discovers about Alithiel in Davien's maze is that it is never to be used for killing and what it does in Stormed Fortress is take the will to fight out of everyone who can 'hear' its truth. Asandir does the same thing with the forest when Lysaer would have burned it down. The men went into a suspended animation and when they awoke were totally unwilling to fight.
Chana, I'm not sure if there's a difference between the necromancers and what Morriel did. I'll have to think about that a while.
originally posted by Chana
Hunter - I'm still not sure I agree with you about 'amplifying/inflaming free will'. If someone is actively controlling the actions of another person, even if they use what is already a part of that person, I don't think it can be considered 'free will'. When the Koriani provoked Arithon with the fetch at Riverton he did not have the option to control the curse because it wasn't within his ability to do so. They basically forced his reaction.
Sandra - When Morriel possessed Selidie the Fellowship could not take action, but when Lysaer was possessed they were able to help Sulfin Evend save Lysaer. This implies a difference, I just don't know what it could be.
originally posted by Lisa
I believe the difference is that Selidie gave permission for Morriel to do this. All initiates give over their hands, mind and body to the will of the Matriarch. Though i'm sure she never imagined the extent to which that would happen, it was part of her oath.
originally posted by Julie
One problem of looking at the individuals used as examples in this discussion is that they are just that- one piece at one time. The Sisterhood and the F7 see things over spans of time. I think the F7 are just as capable of using people. They are much more subtle. They had the capacity to intervene over 500 years of Clan slaughter but did not. Ater all Arithon was able to enspell a protection over the free wilds in Stormed Fortress.The F7 pledged surety for Paravian survival and while they can be compassionate to all living things, humanity does not take precedence. The Sisterhood pledged to save humanity: physical life and cultural heritage- the cost has become sacrificing the natural world.
originally posted by Clansman
One thing that is easy to forget is that humanity has no "rights" on Athera. They came to Athera seeking refuge, and under the terms of the Drake's binding upon the F7, which was to ensure Paravian survival, if human occupation of Athera threatens Paravian survival, humanity must be removed from Athera. The F7 don't have free will in this, as they were bound to the Drake's will magically.
Also, the F7 might manipulate and cajole, but they never force. The Koriani make no bones about giving a Hobbes' choice to someone, and take advantage of whichever way they choose (i.e. accept a Koriani Oath of Debt, or let your wife/husband/child die.) We have not seen the F7 do that. We have seen the F7 do a good deed for nothing, not even gratitude.
Now the Sisterhood seems to forget the fact that humanity on Athera could be destroyed, or not fear it as much as they should. The F7 are not there to be humanity's benefactors. If the Koriani were to be humanity's benefactors, then their actions would show as much. They are there now to benefit themselves, and for the purpose of power and domination. I'd wager that some few of them are like Elaira, but without her intestinal fortitude.
originally posted by Trys
quote:I think a good example of this is the scene where Asandir goes to name Jeynsa as heir to Jeiret. He uses magic to help cure the pelts but uses not one whit of magic to dry himself.We have seen the F7 do a good deed for nothing, not even gratitude.
As to the purpose of the Koriathain, I think that varies according to how high a position in the hierarchy a particular sister occupies. Morriel has a very clear purpose. Lirenda is ambitious. But we've seen other sisters who have had somewhat negative reactions to what Morriel is or is about to do but because of their Oath cannot or will not say anything (I seem to remember a prioress having this reaction but can't place for sure when… possibly when Morriel is laying down her grand conjury in Fugitive Prince). But I believe they hold to the original purpose of the sisterhood.
originally posted by Sandra Jacob
Several days ago there were some posts about Elaira's crystal. I'm rereading all the books and found a passage in Ships where Luhaine goes to visit Elaira when she's going through the crystal-resonance realignment for longevity. He does something to undo the Koriani spell so that the Koriani had no power over her through her personal crystal. Only the Skyron crystal that held her vow still binds her.
I had completely forgotten that and it may hold a clue as to why her personal crystal chose to return to the Koriani hospice.
originally posted by Julie
Yes but neither Elaira nor Seldie seem aware of that. ALthough I think Seldie still used that crystal as an avenue to Elaira at thte end of SF during the impregnation.
originally posted by Sandra Jacob
Well in the scene in Ships that I'm referring to, Luhaine did it after putting Elaira to sleep, so she doesn't know, and of course the Koriani don't know. Hmmm, I do remember something about her crystal in Stormed Fortress. But did it give Selidie control or did it just give her access? I don't remember the Koriani having control over Elaira at all during SF, and whatever they did have, Arithon laid to rest with Alithiel. Other than the sigil they put on her to impregnate her, that is. I'm currently rereading all but am only up to Ships at this point.
originally posted by Sandra Jacob
OK, I just read through the archived posts and see that someone has already commented on this passage so I am reinventing the wheel here. Sorry about that.
I had completely forgotten that piece about her crystal though before rereading it.