originally posted by Clansman
History is replete with examples of "great" people who by modern standards did very evil things. The judgments stated above about Luther and Jefferson are two examples of what might be called "historicist hypocrisy". Looking back with 21st century eyes, it is easy to decry Jefferson's ownership of slaves, or Luther's anti-semitism. To us, putting people in bondage to force labour from them, or judging people by their faith or ethnicity is fundamentally evil. However, Jefferson was the product of centuries of a society that had slavery as a centerpiece of its economy, just as Luther's anti-semitism was endemic to Europe at the time, and survived to grow into the Holocaust of the 1940's. Only now is it relegated to fringe, fanatic groups (I hope and pray!).
I wonder how the future will judge us as a society, or the "great" people in our society. Will Al Gore be featured for his hypocrisy, for catalyzing the movement to curb global warming, at the same time as using colossal amounts of electricity? Who knows? I shudder to think that our age of existence might be judged on the basis of a Paris Hilton or Brittany Spears, but then, it may be what our society deserves.
DJ, we did not get off track. We merely followed the track where it went.
originally posted by Julie
I did not mean to oversimplify Jefferson's life. He is a facinating figure anything but simple. His "hypocrisy" has to be seen in the context of the times. For example how easy would it have been for a freed mixed race female to survive in peri revolutionary America? Could a self reliant plantation survive without slave labour? Which "rights of man" does the government ensure early on to get consensus?
If possible, a trip to Monticello is well worth it
originally posted by DarthJazy
Ok just stopping by to add a note to answer this debate. Im a little over half way through and I read this passage early on she said : if not me you would hve another koriathain appointed to your princes fate. she would be a huntress ruled by hate." it goes on from there saying she seeks a way to triumph and i cant find passage ill post it when i can but she states she is beyond fellowship help because of the free will choice of her crystal that noone understand.
so she does know she can ask for help but she both chooses to stay so that its her the kori use and not another plus the fellowship los tthe ability to help her when her crystal gave free consent.
Darth
originally posted by Clansman
What the heck did you just say???
originally posted by DarthJazy
basically there are passages in the book that prove that Elaira is aware of what the fellowship could have done for her ,but thanx to her personal crystal free choice to return to the Koriathain and stay bonded to Elaira, the fellowship can no longer help her. she also chose to stay so that another, more evil and talented woman, would not be selected.
originally posted by Clansman
Finish reading the book, DJ. I get the impression from the F7 that it doesn't matter what Elaira's crystal thinks, she would be free simply by asking for autonomy from her vows. The vows, after all, are not exactly freely given, but rather imposed by the parents' pledge of their child to Koriani service (if I have this wrong, someone upbraid me).
I disagree, in that I don't think Elaira is totally aware that she can be free from the Koriani. She does not see any way to be free, but she certainly wishes it.
This being said, she is using her position to her and Arithon's greatest advantage, all the while being the bait on the hook for Arithon, with Selidie holding the fishing rod.
I also don't think that Arithon would let a Koriani close to him, save Elaira, so her worries about someone else looking over his shoulder seem a bit misplaced. The quote you cite I think relates to the crisis at hand, and the reaction of certain s'Brydion family members? I don't know, I'll have to look it up. Give me a page no. if you can.
originally posted by DarthJazy
page 37. 6th paragraph
page 264 1st paragraph "the fellowship Sorcerers power to act in her behalf remained tied by the inexplicable choice of her personal qaurtz.
originally posted by DarthJazy
I take these sections to mean that to free Elaira they free her stone since the Kori never gained proper permission and since the stone chose to stay there aint crap they can do now.
originally posted by Laneth Sffarlenn
I think the way the Koriani are bound to the focus stones, (in Elaira's case, the Skyron), is through their own personal crystal.
The two beings are inexplicably linked, and since the Crystal still has its own free choice and that is to serve the Koriathain, Elaira has no other choice other than to follow.
The crystal can choose, the reason being noone knows - however Elaira's vow to the order is a voluntary bonding into a form of slavery to the Matriarch.
I'm not the most eloquent right now…just woke up on a Sunday morning…sorry all
originally posted by Trys
This is NOT a spoiler topic!
originally posted by Kirsten Laurelle Wallace
I actually think that the reason Elaira doesn't ask for help to be freed from her oath is because of the way the oath was explained to her. My understanding is that she feels that the fellowship can only help if she was forced or tricked into the oath. Because she chose it I think that she believes that it is 100% binding and that they can't help her.
originally posted by Trys
Kirsten,
You may be right about 'because she chose it'… but my interpretation of the situation is that it is exactly because she chose it that she can exercise her free will and unchoose it. Thoughts?
Trys
originally posted by Kirsten Laurelle Wallace
Oh, I absolutely agree with you. I hope that's what Janny has her do actually. I think that the reason she hasn't done so is because it hasn't occurred to her that it could work both ways. It's pretty philosophical actually. A lot of people do the same thing. I have a friend in college who picked a degree her freshman year and isn't as happy about it now as she was then. Still, she won't switch it because she chose it and now she thinks that she has no choice but to stick with it. Not nearly the same situation, I know, but it's where I got the idea from.
originally posted by Mark Stephen Kominski
Relevant Passages for possible clarification:
From Curse of the Mistwraith, p. 140, ASANDIR is only addressing Elaira's curiousity about the Prophecy at the West Gate in Enithen Tuer's alcove, not intervening on her behalf with her crystal. He notes that, while the Koriani order is "…dedicated to intolerance…you (Elaira) are different…". There's no mention of crystals, oaths, etc.
From Curse of the Mistwraith, p. 508, however, TRAITHE drops the first clue in his response to Elaira's concern about her order's ability to leash Arithon thru herself:
"You're not alone, brave lady. Nor are you entirely Morriel's plaything, not since the day you chose to seek out Asandir in Erdane."
This would seem to imply some level of request for intervention already.
From Ships of Merior, pps. 148 and 9, we see an event that speaks clearly to the status of Elaira's crystal in the passage that describes LUHAINE's intervention:
"…even Morriel would never discern that the crystal's unnatural attunement had been arrested, then erased, its forced effect of lengthened life span realigned to a kinder patterning source by the laws of grand conjury.
She would live the same years as Arithon, but suffer no ill effects. If the hour came that conflicted interests broke her faith with the Koriani Order, the Prime who presided in judgment would gain no further power through the white quartz matrix of Elaira's personal crystal. Her vows of initiation upon the Skyron focus jewel alone would hold influence against her."
I think this is the event Blue references above (although, if there was another similar such situation with KHARADMON, I can't find it…).
So, I think the personal crystal is out of the picture as a tool for coercion. It's subsequent choice to remain in service to the Koriani order doesn't necessarily have to mean that it can be used against Elaira. Thoughts?
originally posted by adam saunders
Hi, I don't normally post messages although I love reading other peoples opinion and seeing how it agrees or differs from mine. I don't think some of you are giving Elaira enough credit. With all of the hints various F7 have given, the knowlege learnt from Ath's adepts about LoMB and her experiences with Arithon she knows that at the end of the day she is bound by her choice to respect her crystals decision and not her oath. Also I agree with DarthJazy that she knows that the sisterhood would just use someone else with her personal signature (experience, feelings and memories of Arithon) gained from her crystal and recorded in the skyron focus.
originally posted by Mark Stephen Kominski
Hmmm, the book baldly states that she's still influenced by her vows of initiation upon the Skyron focus jewel. No argument with potential consequences involved with honoring the choice of her personal crystal, although I rather imagine that the crystal itself is now free of Koriani influence, and is choosing continued service to be "in the right place at the right time" for whatever the Talespinner has in mind…if this is true, then any experiences after Luhaine's intervention may not BE recorded in the Skyron focus jewel…
originally posted by Technetus
How often has one line three books earlier come back to haunt us in this series?
I believe it's in Peril's Gate, just before Elaira goes on her round of crystal-cleansing; the elder she buys from in the marketplace says something along the lines of "Stone speaks, for you". It's a line that's stuck with me as perhaps having more import than just in that moment.
*Nods to JW and anybody else who happens to remember him from way back*
originally posted by Sandra Jacob
WOW! What a fascinating thread! Have to come back and read the whole thing after work.
originally posted by Chana
It is fascinating! I was just reading the part in Traitor's Knot where the novices are taking their oaths.
"My hands, my mind, and my body, are hereby given to enact the will of the Prime Matriarch, WHO'S WHOLE CAUSE IS THE GREATER GOOD OF HUMANITY"
In GC Elaira mentioned that the cause of the order had in fact once been about helping people. I was simply wondering if the Koriathain always attached strings to their services, because if so, I don't see how they could ever be considered 'good'. Invoking a life debt is cruel manipulation, whichever way you look at it.
originally posted by Sandra Jacob
Well, the Koriani have never stopped at cruel manipulation. Look at Fionn Areth. Look at how they have forced Elaira against her will, although that hasn't worked entirely without flaw, has it. I was just rereading the scene in Fugitive Prince where Karadmon visits her to give her another chance to ask for help from them to gain her freedom. At the time I first read it, I was aggravated with her for her stubborn perversity, but now am beginning to wonder …
Your thoughts expressed here have brought me back to wondering why her crystal chose to return to the sisterhood. Perhaps it does have something wicked in mind… wicked towards the sisterhood, that is.
I think that the Koriani have gotten far far away from their original purpose. Morriel is clearly insane and so intent on keeping her own power that anything she does is warped and short sighted.