originally posted by Sleo
Alas, sigh. I fear your are right, Annette! Later in the text it clarifies that saving her father is her destiny and that she will have free will throughout. It makes the point that 'free will' is the difference between the Biedar and the Koriathain.
originally posted by Hunter
SPOILER??
I wonder whether Arithon will wield the Biedar knife in this book or the final book? And will the Biedar knife be more powerful than Alithiel?
originally posted by Sleo
Interesting question!
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
Depends on what you think of as powerful. Alithiel can affect many people at the same time, especially if her power is channelled through Arithon. The knife can only protect one person, the knife itself seems to have no effects on the necromancers when the etheric cords are cut. If it only protects against necromancy is it as powerful as Alithiel?
In Arithon's case though the knife might have another purpose, maybe he uses it twice. Although I would guess if he is going to be freeing anyone with it, especially if it is himself it would be in Destiny's Conflict. Maybe if any significant changes are going to occur by using it to swear a blood oath, Arithon would wait till later. Maybe we could measure the power of each artifact by how it affects Arithon when he uses it.
I re-read the flask section and noticed something strange. Janny often uses phrases to give us hints about other things we might not yet be aware of. This could be that or could just be an over active imagination. It concerns the scarlet birds on the flask. If the flask is an obtuse hint at something, the colours might not necessarily refer to royal colours or kingdom colours. Janny might have thrown a few other hints in there I did not see before. Just before Dakar first appears Asandir makes the comment ‘My unfinished business come flocking to roost.’ Dakar has been compared to many things in the books, but never a bird before, or at least I do not remember it ever happening, my favourite was always moon-calf. Asandir's comment did seem a bit strange. Later Asandir baits Dakar by asking for a tranced prophecy concerning the Prime Matriarch's plans, and we are told once the rebuke would have flustered Dakar scarlet. OK that is really stretching it, but having already started thinking about birds the word scarlet really jumped out at me. Yes I do have an over active imagination, but it could be something.
Dakar's clothing started out sort of grotty grey due to neglect, then he sort of settled on russet the only times he dressed up. I have not gone back yet to look at what he usually wore. Now he seems to have settled on brown. Brown is a mixture of red and black/grey, very vague I know, but maybe Dakar is slowly changing his 'frequency', maybe he could end up red? Or maybe he just takes better care of his clothes these days. As a chakra colour red represents physical security, that does seem to be something Dakar would be aiming for.
The red, blue and green are primary colours in this case the trio are the primary colours for emitted light, such as from the sun. When combined they would form white light. You never know with Janny, she never seems to just put things in there for no reason. Maybe it is just an innocent flask in need of repair, maybe it is a hint at something completely different. And maybe like a lot of Janny's hints you can interpret it multiple ways, or get it completely wrong.
originally posted by Hunter
Spoilers… spoilers…
I've just re-read The Sundering Star from Sandtiger's excellent collection of stories - "Under cover of darkness". I did so to recall what Jessian was up to - the same Jessian referred to be the Biedar crone when Elaira traipses down to Sanpashir to consult with her.
As much as anything is clear in this series, that Arithon will use the Biedar knife on Morriel (in some way) is almost certain. From the Sundering Star, the Biedar make it clear that they wish to reclaim their knowledge from misuse - exactly the same misuse that the Koriani include as now standard practice. I believe that the Koriani rituals form one of the two remaining manifestations of necromancy to be reclaimed (still thinking on the third).
So… if Arithon uses the Biedar knife to reclaim the Biedar's proscribed knowledge, that would certainly end Morriel's possession of Selidie. Koriani longevity spells are based on that same knowledge, so all of the Koriani with forced longevity would probably suffer the same fate as the Koriani looking after Caolle when he grounded her crystal in salt water. It is then rather convenient, no?, that Elaira's longevity is Fellowship aligned rather than Koriani forced. The Koriani as we know them would cease to exist as all ranking seniors are well past their natural lifespans and would cease to exist. There are too many references to Arithon being Mother Dark's chosen and him breaking the Koriani line of succession to not end up with this happening somehow.
I wonder whether the third line if necromancy is the enslavement of the Koriani crystals and whether Arithon might somehow use the Biedar knife on the Great Waystone and Skyron crystals to free the enslaved spirits.
Having thence reclaimed their knowledge and being able to move between worlds of their own volition, one wonders if the Biedar will then decide to leave Athera?
The three short stories Janny has written set in the Wars of Light and Shadow are clearly required reading for context and further information.
originally posted by Sleo
Oh my goodness, you both are giving me much food for thought.
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
Hunter, the idea of all the souls trapped by the crystals is quite intriguing as the third form of necromancy. Of course the Waystone is not the only crystal so used. The Skyron crystal also has many.
Of course, the possession of Selidie is one form of necromancy. Is the binding use of Koriani rituals the third you mean? That would include the trapping by the crystals. The possession of Selidie was not strictly a form of Koriani practice, as indicated by the disapproval of the other high ranking senior at the time.
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
Just as the sorcerers do not condone murder, neither would Arithon, wiping out necromancy and the knowledge relating to it (or passing it on to whoever is meant to have it) seems unlikely to drop dead every red banded witch on Athera. They are more likely to be the victims rather than the necromancers. Their longevity is tied to crystal, while unnatural if Morriel and necromancy vanished from Athera it probably would have no effect on the bindings. The law of the major balance is hardly something you can enforce against the will of another. Arithon would want to free them from the threat of necromancy, not kill them.
I am not sure, but I would suspect the Biedar knife can only be used to free the living from necromancy. Arithon would not need it anyway to redeem spirits, or clear a crystal. And if selective clearing of a crystal was needed did we not go though that with Lirenda's crystal and how it was to be cleared of a certain tune. Arithon could probably do it with his music.
The Biedar can already travel between worlds if they want to, their knowledge was stolen long before they arrived on Athera. And just because someone stole that knowledge does not mean the Biedar no longer have it. You hack into a computer system and copy all their records it does no harm to the original records. The knowledge was stolen from their minds! Presumably everything is set right the Biedar would leave.
Since the Biedar and Athera have their life web connecting all life, necromancers are related if doing the opposite, maybe we should look for webs? Morriel is the stalking spider on her strung webs. Who else has webs out? Janny always puts clues in there some where.
quote:If cornered, the temple priesthood will shed blood to secure the web that feeds its survival!'
Just how do these religious zealots get so much power?
originally posted by Clansman
Quote: Just how do these religious zealots get so much power?
The same way that they have always done: lie, cheat and steal. The Light Religion reflects very closely the medieval Church prior to the Protestant Reformation. The Church at the height of its earthly power in the 12th and 13th century owned outright 1/3 of the land in Europe. It used the threat of excommunication on any king that stepped "out of line" (any vassals of an excommunicated king were freed of their oaths, and thus excommunication was de facto Church-sponsored rebellion). There were the abuses of simony (holding multiple church offices (and not doing the work that came with them), indulgences (buying your way into heaven?!?), oppression of the masses (the Church had millions of serfs (i.e. slaves)), not to mention church-sponsored violence (Crusades, Inquisition, etc.).
Now, harken back to the things that Christ actually did and said, at least according to what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have to say about it, and the Church of the middle ages had no resemblance to what Christ was talking about, or even the church described in Luke's second book, the Book of Acts. The Church of Pope Innocent III (what an oxymoron of a name that is!) was a corrupt and evil behemoth that actively oppressed Europe in order to sustain itself. Watch the movie of Umberto Eco's 'The Name of the Rose' (the book is much better) and look at the scene where the church prelates are in the carriage, wearing their finery, and being pushed up the hill by a bunch of starving and filthy peasants. The juxtaposition of those images is profound.
Examples of the same can be found in most, if not all, other faiths, as human greed and lust for power creeps in to corrupt the moral principles of a faith's founder.
Add to the human history of the abuse of organized religion the fact that Lysaer was a war-mongering, hate-filled and curse-ridden avatar (no "turn other cheek", "the meek shall inherit the earth", "walk the extra mile" or "feed my sheep" kind of guy is Lysaer), the Religion of Light started off as being rotten at its core.
A major and obvious theme of 'The Wars of Light and Shadow' is the abuses of organized religion, which so often ignores the tenets which it purports to uphold (truth, justice, mercy, and protection of the weak and innocent). Another good fantasy series displaying this theme is Paul Kearney's 'Monarchies of God', that shows the difference between honest priests and the dishonest church of which they are a part, and how far that church has departed from its founder's teachings.
As a major theme of human history, regardless of one's faith, or lack thereof, the corruption of organized religion is always deserving of examination.
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
Not political or religious power, the power to rip a persons mind open and see all their secrets, the power to sniff out where anyone with any natural talent might be hiding. None of our local religions ever had any power like that. Lysaer recruited natural talent for his priesthood, but these examiners and diviners seem to be powered by more than just natural talent. Certainly their power comes from no god, they are not wise to the mysteries, and they have no training like the mages or the koriani, so how did they get so powerful? Who's dark power corrupted the Lights religion this time? Maybe the Koriani are not the only ones using the True Sect's priesthood to accomplish their own ends. Janny never really looked that close at how they work, but Tarens was terrified to face questioning in Kelsing and probably Erdane is even worse. Now they have Etarra they will probably waste no time moving over there as well. We always suspected there was something rotten hiding in Erdane, in Destiny's Conflict we should get to see what it was.
Now if we are going to get all interested in comparisons, better to go for Christ himself. Arithon already calmed several different types of storms and managed to walk on water, true he has not raised any dead, but Jieret and Tarens were getting close. He has redeemed entire planets of lost spirits. Arithon has a mountain to climb yet, and Janny might throw in healing of the blind along the way. We get a resurrection what are we going to make of Arithon? He makes no claims to divinity and is not about to start any religion and yet the Biedar did claim he was God touched. Is Arithon more than just Elaira's beloved? We already know he is Mother Dark's chosen one, was he just chosen to end necromancy, to be a guiding light for humanity? Or is there a bit more to it. One brother looks the part, all golden and shiny bright, one acts the part all compassionate and wise to the mysteries. Creation did start in the dark particularly in Athera's universe, if Arithon is the light to shine in the dark, should we be wondering where he is headed? Kewar did give some hints, there were 5 options, Athliera was denied him, and one Arithon assumed had been created with a Paravian in mind, what if it had been designed for Arithon? And why is it everything in Ath's creation also seems to have the Name for everything else ever created, Ath is everything but everything had to start somehow, how does everything end up in the void before creation before it is even created? And how does it get created in the first place, even with all the Names. Did Ath create a template for creation in this Naming business? Song of the Mysteries might explain a bit about that side of things.
We get to the end of Destiny's Conflict those ideas might not seem quite so far fetched, although I have my doubts Janny would have explained much about the Mysteries, better to keep them a mystery for the last book.
originally posted by Julie
While our earth's religions did not have the "power to rip open someone's mind" they did have all sorts of torture which terrorized the masses.
In modern times torture and terror are still very effective means to control others.
originally posted by Hunter
Religions have always had an ability to find those who are perceived or deemed to not follow the "true path". Inquisitions anyone? Plenty of contemporary examples.
"Who's dark power corrupted the Lights religion this time?" I would suggest you're looking for a conspiracy that doesn't exist - basic human greed, a desire for power over others and your standard bigotry and ignorance are all over the True Sect in spades. Nothing too mysterious about how this all got "corrupted" as you say - I would suggest that it would be an aberration of human nature for the "True Sect" to have ended up as anything other than they are.
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
Athera never had any religion before Lysaer started his false one. There had never been any priests or churches, Ath's adepts never went in search of recruits, they had no priesthood. Mankind had lived for over 5000 years on Athera without such things and they had the Paravians as such a shining example of Ath's love, why would Athera be following our example? Lysaer first got the idea of passing himself of as divinity incarnate after his defeat at Vastmark(5647) During Fugitive Prince they were still in the setting up phase(5653) their false religion was not that wide spread. The Light's religion lost its High Priest and and some senior acolytes with the clean out of the Kralovir in 5671, and Arithon certainly made fools of the priest in Shand and Etarra during that time. Arithon was imprisoned in 5674 and by 5683 Lysaer had decided he had enough of divinity and his own false religion and thrown them out of Etarra, denying their claims on him. The more militant True Sect branch of the Light's religion was formed because of that schism. So Lysaer's false religion had 36 years at most to worship him, and less than that in most places. Then he turns around and disowns his own religion. Do not recall any earth religions having to survive that, let alone a dragon, laughter and the fellowship disbanding the Alliance and packing everyone off home. While the Light's faith might have spread over 4 maybe 5 kingdoms the True Sect branch is confined to Tysan. If Lysaers false religion was always going that way, why did it only evolve like that in Tysan? Why is it Erdane, who were always so paranoid about letting any initiate talent within their walls is now hosting a priesthood powered by the very thing they seemed to fear.
Are you sure I am looking for a conspiracy that does not exist? There could not be some other reason why Erdane embraced Lysaer's false religion with such enthusiasm? Has the True Sect been corrupted from its initial purpose? Did the basics of a true religion ever have anything to do with why Lysaer even started the false religion in the first place?
originally posted by Julie
While there may not have been a "religion" per se on Athera there was certainly spirituality and rituals. There were creation myths, supreme beings (Ath, Dharkaron) and an afterlife. Once the Paravians left, only the Clan born had any connection the mysteries, and that was only reinforced through diligence.
There is mention of Solstice holidays among the towns but without the integration of Paravians, clan, or Fellowship guidence.
Humans have an inate spiritual need. Something happened in our own history several thousand years ago which fostered a move from earth based localized religion to the salvation tied religions of monotheism, Budhism etc. It is easy to sell fear- the Light stepped into the void promising protection and salvation. The sword and eventual mind probes keep the population in check.
I do not think Lysaer wanted to be worshipped, he needed to attract the multitudes to his (curse driven) cause. His self proclaimed divine origins were the neccessary opposite of Arithon's supposed evil ones. He was disgusted by the transformation of his personal talent pool. The True Sect seems to be the male version of the Koriani (who we know were instrumental in guiding their training.
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
I somehow doubt the Koriani would ever willingly share their initiate knowledge with even one male, let alone a whole priesthood. Do we have any reason to think they would have? The Koriani use them when it is convenient, there might be an alliance brought on by common interests occasionally. Yes the True Sect seem to be a male version of the Koriani, and what nasty little secrets do we know of the Koriani? There could be a bit more in common than just the desire to gain power. Erdane's archives were not lost in the Rebellion, no telling what dark secrets might have been hiding in Erdane's vault. Janny left a trail of clues in the books.
There is spirituality on Athera, till the mistwraith showed up there was even a direct connection to Ath available with the Paravians, and even with them absent there was always Ath's adepts to set the example. All Athera used to celebrate the solstice and equinox festivals. The Paravians also interacted with Athera at that time to channel Athera's earthforces. Some might have noticed those times are also favoured for and major workings involving magecraft. There would be a practical reason why the flux tides and magcraft were stronger at those times, it would have nothing to do with religion. They all knew who Ath was that knowledge was not only known by the clans and Paravians. There was no organised religion, no priests, no hierarchy in Ath's order. They had faith in Ath, just like they had faith the sun was going to rise the next day, they did not need an organised religion to have that faith. Yes Lysaer found it easy to blind the sheep and lead them astray, because of that. But once Lysaer withdrew his claim, why did Tysan not settle down like every where else?
Lysaer created his false religion for the sole purpose of destroying Arithon, he could not face the cost of blood a feud, so turned it into a holy war. Sorcery, clans and Ath's adepts are merely things he felt could give support to Arithon, so they were also targeted.
There was another faction who was interested in using religion to gain what they wanted.
quote:"The faction I speak for will back Lysaer's cause. In secret, we've labored to abolish the compact since the overthrow of the last high kings. Those of our heirs who incline toward religion will scarcely care which name they invoke when they mouth their prayers to a deity."
originally posted by Julie
Where was this quote from? It is basically saying that the underlying motivation for this faction has nothing to do with religious conviction, but some will use a deity for justification. We have already provided a fairly good list of examples in this discussion. I will add one more- the Spanish monarchy enlisted the sanction of Pope Alexander to claim the New World, in exchange the Catholic CHurch was guarenteed riches. THe pope gave the Spanish his OK under the extremely thin excuse that Christianity was being brought to the "savages".
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
The quote is from Fugitive Prince (pg 250 in the newest Mass Market paperback) the speaker is Lord Koshlin, Erdane's Minister of Trade. While the conflict might have everything to do with spirit, religion is only a smokescreen, readers would do better to look at what is in the books rather than comparing the True Sect to earth religions. While Davien was stirring up trouble in Havish it seems something else might have been stirring in Erdane, both factions want the compact broken. Why was Enithen Tuer living in Erdane? The place hardly seemed a safe place for an ex-Koriani to be, even if she was protected by the Biedar knife, was she there keeping an eye on something while waiting for Sulfin Evend? Several mentions were made about necromancers meeting near or travelling from Erdane, Ath's hostel near Erdane was abandoned by the time the story starts. None of the Grey Kralovir seemed to be at Erdane, so what was?
There seems to be ties to necromancy in both Hanshire and Erdane. Hanshire is home to a nest of Koriani, what was Erdane home to before the True Sect took up residence? Was it just coincidence that the True Sect started up there? Lysaer disowned them, wanted nothing to do with their canon, why? Rather than enslave the clan born the True Sect just wants to wipe them out, they have closed off Tysan and isolated their victims, if their reason for doing what they are doing was just religion, why did they not spread out and try and convert the traditionalists. Lysaer would try and stop them in Rathain, Crown rule would stop them in Havish, Melhalla and Shand seem unprotected and the Lights religion had already spread to those kingdoms. If the True Sect was only interested in converts, why go for the armed and defended Havish when there were two other kingdoms ripe for conversion. Havish were not savages, and despite the attitude of the True Sect what threat would the clans and mage gifted in another kingdom be to their religion?
Why is the True Sect frightened of talent, when it is built on such talent itself? Why did Koshlin influence Lysaer's original priesthood, what threat were they to Erdane?
quote:'You never wondered why Hanshire's mayors don't fraternize with Erdane's council? Or why High Priest Cerebeld and his acolytes are decidedly unloved by the secret factions who pressure town politics? Their flow of gold helps proliferate the leagues of headhunters, and their sworn purpose is to hound the old blood to extinction.'
Peril's Gate pg 386 newest Mass Market pb
Which leads back to Hunter and Sleo's speculation about where another sect of necromancy might be. We are not looking for two forms of necromancy but two other sects (or maybe three). If the Koriani are one, we are looking for a different group, not the same groups practising a different form of necromancy. Either that or the Koriani are just more victims of something started in Hanshire. But Janny gave no hints about there being three, the Biedar Eldest and Asandir said two offshoots still existed and we already know the Koriani are dabling in necromancy. Janny gave us more information about Erdane in Initiate's Trial.
quote:Dangerous history had roots in that place, where the mayor’s council once had been corrupted by necromancers. Though the cult was defunct, the shady influence still tainted the town’s entrenched factions
And the glossary entry for Erdane spells it out as well. Coincidently, Tarens killed the True Sects diviner with an iron poker, an iron blade being the ritual method of disposing of the shell of a necromancer. And there was Dakars comment to the True Sect Examiner during the trial at Ettara.
quote:Not a splinter of bone, or a plucked wisp of hair tied in cloth and infused as a fetch to bend anyone to my purpose.
We know what the fetch was, but why mention a splinter of bone? The Koriani do not seem to use bone to control others, is the True Sect perhaps pimping for more than one sect. When the Grey Kralovir were destroyed, white mage fire ensured nothing was left of the corpses, not even a splinter of bone. Seems even such a small thing could be dangerious. Perhaps something was left over from the original sect that was at Erdane? Or maybe the group based in Erdane just keep these little talismans to use when they need them, much like the Koriani do.
originally posted by Brian R
The speculations are fascinating BUT are they relevant. Janny could be laughing her head off. She KNOWS what will happen and as she has said
"In many ways, life by itself has been complicated, and the next book is an arc ending LIKE NO OTHER. Expect it will blow Stormed Fortress out of the water."
One set AND two - are going to totally blow your mind. Even more than the opener of Initiate's Trial, but ;X - can't remove the authorial duct tape, the spoilers, even hinted, would be extreme.
Brace yourselves, reinforce your ceiling, and walls, in case you bounce off them rather hard.
Because You Have No Idea…!!!
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
Well I am sort of expecting Destiny's Conflict to have Arithon having a very close (and hopefully informative, although probably not knowing Janny) encounter with Athili. Assuming he does actually go to Rathain straight away, I do not see how he could walk past it without anything happening. then there will be his meeting with Rathain's clans, which will certainly give us lots of interesting info about both the present and past. And we are all waiting with baited breath to see what happens when Lysaer wakes up, Dakar cannot keep him asleep for ever. And with summer fast coming up there will be Selidie Prime's little surprise to add excitement to the early chapters. And the trap waiting in Deal presumably for Elaira. Another coronation in Havish. Then there is Davien on the loose with no keeper, who knows what he will get up to and whether or not he is going to be obeying an oath that binds the rest of the Fellowship to inactivity where Arithon's fate is concerned.
So the opening chapters could cover interesting entanglements with just about all the main participants in the many conflicts. Maybe no dragons to start with, but there is still the mystery of what happened on the other side of Northgate. Or maybe something could interrupt Seshkrozchiel's plans for a nap.
Incredible how quiet things have been, lately.
Let's kick over the complacency…how many HUGE hints are buried in former volumes that will find culmination in Arc IV?
Yup. They are there. In plain sight. M A J O R in your eye kind of statements.
And ready for visceral development in Destiny's Conflict.
Care to speculate?
originally posted by Annette
Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler.
I think what I am speculating on would ruin it, but just finding out how Arithon gets to survive that execution might give me my answer, or at least a PRIME clue. You are devious and the answer is never that obvious, despite all the hints in Initiate's Trial there has to be an unexpected twist to this mystery. The suspense is killing me, especially as I might never get to read the final book. I die before finding out the answer expect to be haunted by a very cheeky ghost who likes to read WoLaS books.