originally posted by Annette
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Well Arithon and Elaira seem to have no trouble with abstinence, so if it takes a few more centuries to sort things out they should survive.
Once they do eventually get together I would think Elaira would be having lots of children if they are planning on reviving Athera's mysteries the most enjoyable way. Birth control seems not to work with a grand confluence. They both live very long lives they could end up with enough children that their descendants could populate a small kingdom. Perhaps Elaira will be making use of her sisterhood as a source of babysitters, they could do with increasing their mothering instincts.
And once a couple again they are always together, even when they are apart, so no need for time to themselves. I would have thought they would have had all eternity together, although the discussion Elaira had with the Eldest of the Biedar was a bit worrying.
originally posted by Julie
Arithon was given an extended life to 500 years, Elaira was enspelled to live as long as he does. I guess they would be around 325 years old now. In any event I never got that they had the intention of reviving Athera's mysteries. Arithon wants the Paravians to return but that does not depend on he and Elaira being a prolific breeding pair. We do not really know what his heart's true desires are- I am sure Elaira is part of that but maybe more in the sense of wholeness, balance, and beauty inherent in unconditional love which transcends the physical.
originally posted by Annette
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Actually we do know what Arithon's heart's desire is it was shown in Kewar, Davien verified he could achieve it.
quote:Desh-thiere's curse was a memory, all bloodshed behind him. He could abandon both crown and sword without guilt and reassume the pursuit of his music. Elaira's voice called him. Her open arms promised him peace, and the delights of unimpaired freedom. Together, they would build a bright future. Immersed in the rapture of her tender love, Arithon beheld a shared life made full. Together, they could study the grand confluence of the mysteries and raise a family of gifted children.
Peril's Gate
quote:Given certain conditions, such developed sensitivity could subject you to pressures no human being should be asked to endure. You would react exactly as you did today, and bid Dharkaron Avenger's Five Horses take the hindmost. No power on Athera could sway your course. In violation of the Law of the Major Balance, you could only be killed, which sets the stinging thorn in the rose. To marry you with wisdom, you would have to be inflamed until you mastered your rebellion. The Fellowship would never cozen such risk. They can't. The brute conflict might shatter the compact.'
Arithon cut through the diversionary rhetoric. 'Then as Teir's'Ffalenn pressured to accept the high kingship, surely the explosion would be contained. I can't smash the world's order while burdened under crown duties. Your impressive list of my threatening tendencies ought to be kept neatly hobbled.'
Peril's Gate
quote:'Arithon once told me the wish of his heart. Would you deny him the tempering
experience he needs to achieve his most cherished desire?'
Traitor's Knot
True this heart's desire could transcend the physical, they could both transcend literally (at least one is bound to eventually), the gifted children could even be all of humanity. I think Arithon would start on something a bit smaller though.
Whatever Arithon and Elaira are going to do they would have to resolve their problems and claim their destiny before the 500 years ran out. Selidie and her dark practices might yet shorten that time limit. The brothers drank from the fountain in 5637 and we left Athera in Initiate's Trial in 5923 so only 286 years have past. Plenty of time left if Arithon can avoid dying untimely and humanity can avoid breaking the compact and getting wiped out.
Teylia might have given a hint about untimely in chapter 1, or letting go might have nothing to do with what happens in the third age, but might be referring to something else. Janny never puts these things in for no reason, so it is bound to come up eventually.
originally posted by Julie
The key words are tender love, peace, and freedom. The mysteries are sourced in love and balance.They had a glimpse of that before being interrupted. The physical was only a part of it. He has a much deeper understanding of that than Elaira and although her heart is open, she has a lot of mental obstacles to overcome. Arithon is wedded to the land- I wonder if he could have wakened such a strong response if no longer crown prince or king.
So his heart's desires as I interpreted them were to live his life in freedom, safety, and beauty (which includes Elaira's love and his music).
originally posted by Sleo
AND children. I remember his image of himself and Elaira and children in one of the books.
originally posted by Annette
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Sleo could be thinking of Arithon's conversation with Jieret, who was so hopeful Arithon would start a family of his own one day. That is the same conversation J Tal was thinking about where Fionn's ill usage came up.
quote:While in my right mind, I won't squander the s'Ffalenn lineage he spared to restore a crown presence in Rathain.' The released surge of hope blazed too blindingly bright. Jieret shut his eyes to stem his shocked tears of relief. 'Thank you for that promise. Might I ask, will you marry?' The plea was ripe folly, an impulse regretted as he braced for a scalding rebuttal. But the letdown came gentle from Arithon, this night; as ominous an admission, that this meeting between friends might very well be the last. 'Fionn Areth's ill usage at Jaelot should show you my reason why not.'
quote:Unthinkable, the prospect that a blood s'Ffalenn heir might be taken and used as the pawn of political expedience. For as long as Desh-thiere's curse fed the fervor of townbred hatreds, no babe born of Torbrand's lineage could grow to adulthood in safety. Fionn Areth's chance likeness had proved beyond doubt: Arithon of Rathain had too many enemies seeking just such sure leverage to entrap him. 'Any child of yours could invoke Fellowship protection,' Jieret burst out as, again, his raw longing outpaced prudent thought. 'With his fate proscribed, as a virtual prisoner!' Since his nakedness canceled the grace of retreat, Arithon used rage to buy distance. 'I'll have no get of mine entangled by the dictates of kingship and destiny. Not for a land torn to arms by the Mistwaith's cursed war, not even for the needs of the Sorcerers' compact, to save what remains of the order the Betrayer's rebellion pulled down.'
quote:'Ath Creator show mercy, Jieret!' Raked on the exposed nerve of his helplessness, Arithon gave back his very self. 'I'm a man, heart and mind, not a vessel begotten to reseed the Fellowship's tailor-made bloodline. If I ever breed heirs, they will grow up in love. Sons or daughters, I would see them raised by their mother, cherished and protected by my right arm, and the guaranteed trust of my sanity.'
All that was given to us in Peril's Gate Chapter VII. Threshold pg's 259-260 in the newest mass market paperback.
originally posted by Sleo
No, I don't believe that's what I'm thinking of. He had a moment of inner longing and his vision was of exactly that - he and Elaira raising sons/daughters. I am aware he's not wanting to have them if it means a burden to the Fellowship or anyone else.
Which all forebodes a wrathful response to Teylia's fate if he ever finds out about her. And she was the pawn of the Biedar, not the Fellowship.
And I don't think his awareness of their likely fate has any bearing on his wanting of children, while at the same time being determined not to have them. Just another unfulfilled desire, unless Davien's prophecy turns out to be right.
originally posted by Sleo
And, oh DRAT! I forgot the SPOILER THANG AGAIN!
originally posted by Paige Madison
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I personally wouldn't describe a 250 yr old woman who chose as a child to go with Koriani as a "pawn" of the Beidar. Everything I read seemed to indicate that she chose her fate willingly.
originally posted by Sleo
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Yes, she 'chose', but don't you remember at the end of Stormed Fortress, the conversation between the Mother Dark and Sethvir? And Mother Dark saying this one was hers? There's a bigger Biedar plan behind it all.
originally posted by Trys
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I agree that the Biedar have a bigger plan behind it all but Teylia made a choice of her freewill and I don't believe the Biedar would have forced her to them if she hadn't. My suspicion is that Mother Dark spoke as she did because Teylia was the expected right spirit to arrive at the right time and the right place to serve as needed.
originally posted by Sleo
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I think there is truth in what you say, but then why did she lay claim to Teylia? Are you saying she knew that Teylia would want to do what she did? But wouldn't the Fellowship want that as well?
originally posted by Annette
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The eldest of the Biedar might not be Mother Dark, although the way they seem to interact with the spirits of their ancestors I am starting to wonder if we could ever be sure who exactly any of the Biedar are, and that especially goes for Teylia who was not even born a Biedar. Teylia's spirit was of the Biedar ancestry I am suspicious it might have been someone we once knew. But then the Paravians themselves arouse my suspicions that way and I am starting to suspect it is related somehow. Suspicions aside, Mother Dark is older than the Biedar, probably older than creation itself, and likely enough something to do with Ath. Mother Dark was after all part of the Biedar myth of creation. Anyone ever works out the bit about the seed of the sun I am all ears.
Despite Teylia choosing to sacrifice her life for Arithon, I really do not think Arithon is going to see it in a reasonable light when he finds out. We know his thoughts on anyone sacrificing their lives for him, how much worse a daughter wasting her life as a pawn of the Koriani and then being killed instead of him. We already know how he felt about the child he never had a chance to even conceive (maybe that bit is what Sleo was thinking of), what would he think about those who knew he had fathered a child, never told him about her, and then allowed Selidie to get her hands on her at the tender age of three. Arithon was presumably wandering around for three years and had not been told he had a daughter, all those supposed friends and protectors who not only failed to protect Teylia but never gave Arithon a chance to protect her. Already Arithon had a tendency not to ask for Fellowship assistance, even when doing tasks they had set him to do, he would not rely on them. It is his nature to forgive everyone but himself it seems, so he will forgive them all, and most likely blame himself for what happened. And even if somehow the Fellowship are ever in a position to protect him from Prime Selidie or any other threat, Arithon will probably never again accept anything from the Sorcerer's unless it is his freedom. And we just know he will find out about Teylia, probably from Dakar which is why Dakar has no plans of ever seeing Arithon again. Arithon's plans when he remembers Dakar might be interesting, especially if Dakar is still with Lysaer.
originally posted by Julie
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I think Arithon will be initially pissed at Dakar- but there is a bigger picture. We have no idea what happened at the wedding and I imagine Dakar did whatever he did ultimately to protect Arithon- so his intentions were good.
Also what child are you refering to? When he and Elaira were interrupted it was because Dakar had a true vision of Koriani manipulating to force a conception then take the child from Elaira. She was pissed because she felt they should have been given the chance to act on their own. BUT she had taken contraceptives. She did not know about the cipher to conceive placed by Seledie
originally posted by Trys
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quote:I think laying claim is overstating it. The words may sound like that but how can you lay claim to something that is already yours.I think there is truth in what you say, but then why did she lay claim to Teylia?
quote:Exactly.Are you saying she knew that Teylia would want to do what she did?
quote:Perhaps. Who can know the mind of a sorcerer for they are subtle.But wouldn't the Fellowship want that as well?
originally posted by Sleo
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@Annette - I know 'Mother Dark' is not the name of the elder I'm speaking of, but I admit to being too lazy to look it up. In the book, last chapter of SF - 'the revered who was 'Eldest'.'
@Trys - During the scene at Athir, she is watching from Sanpashir… she says 'Our part draws nigh as hope for the wandering spirit becomes reborn'. This seems to imply some sort of reincarnation, doesn't it?
So, on rereading that crucial scene at Athir, and the communication between the Eldest and Sethvir, it seems that at the conception of Dari s'Ahelas - story told in the short story 'Child of Prophecy.'
She was conceived in the sands of Sanpashir and apparently the Biedar handed her destiny to the Fellowship. And later, she says, 'This child shall come to spare her father, one day, dispossessed of his knowledge of her paternity.' There ensues a lengthy conversation between her and Sethvir, affirming that the child will have free will. And it seems she is born with the Biedar spirit, so she has some of their magic.
All very interesting.
re: Dakar - I think there is no doubt Dakar loves Arithon and he says at one point that Arithon wouldn't let him interfere with his capture. So I am unsure as to why he's so afraid to meet him again.
originally posted by Trys
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Sleo, yes that is an interesting turn of phrase. Perhaps 'wandering spirit' does imply reincarnation.
originally posted by Annette
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I think Dakar is more worried about the consequences of Arithon finding out about Teylia than he is about Arithon blaming him for any past mistakes. Arithon has never blamed Dakar for anything. Dakar knows he is not perfect, he does not trust himself to be able to keep the secret from Arithon. I think it is guilt for a possible future mistake as much as Dakars feelings of guilt for the past that has him tied up in knots.
I believe it was hope that was reborn at Athir, Arithon had just wandered off for a bit, the same spirit returned to the same body. But you never know, perhaps hope does get reborn as an incarnate spirit, and it could have something to do with Arithon, but the only one born at Athir was Teylia. I think Janny will leave us guessing about Teylia till the last book. But it would not surprise me if reincarnation had something to do with it all. Definitely I am expecting a familiar spirit to be reincarnated as a Paravian at a completely different point in the story. And there were a few other Paravians involved in setting up the path for Mother Dark's chosen one that seemed suspicious, but maybe like the Biedar they are all in on the secret anyway. It was the Paravians who asked the Biedar to help with the conception of Dari, and the Paravians themselves were involved with the conception of Havish's heir who survived the rebellion, although we never heard any more about him. The old Earl's Court seems a significant place, certainly the Koriani like to set up shop in places where the flux is closest to the surface, there is no focus circle there so perhaps one of the previous tenants is the reason. The s'Gannley, they are a suspicious batch, and not just because of the Paravian meaning of their name. How were there Princes of Camris before the royal lines were selected? Janny gave us a fair bit of background on that lineage, why did Iamine s'Gannley refuse to found Tysan's royal lineage, had one of those many prophecies predicted something else, had the Paravians said something to her, or did she just know it was the right thing to do?
And then there is the seemingly innocent bit in Initiate's Trial where Sethvir is inspecting the flask belonging to the stopper he repairs.Janny has me so suspicious now, I will look at anything and try and make something of it. Janny likes sneaking in clues in strange places, and indigo, emerald and red are the colours of Tysan, Rathain and Havish, what each colour was could have been significant as well. If the glaze was indigo the flaw in the stopper would have been indigo presumably, and Sethvir was talking about Lysaer being compromised at the same time he was healing the stopper. Five royal lines were matched to the land, but we already know Tysan had a possible alternate royal lineage, what if Melhalla also had another royal line. The lost s'Dieneval lineage that both Lysaer and Arithon carry. The gift for prophecy that lineage carried could have been another Biedar addition, and we have a seemingly unimportant tale of a Princess of Falmuir, Falmuir was in Melhalla but the tale does not seem to relate to the lost s'Ellestrion royal line. The Princess in question seems to have known what was going to happen, perhaps she was a prophet? Both Arithon and Lysaer also carry Shand's royal lineage so the mix of Arithon, Lysaer (or a child of his) and a heir from Havish could cover all 5 kingdoms. Arithon has already been involved with defence of both Shand and Melhalla, he visited the kings grove in Selkwood, Atwood has a Queens grove maybe Arithon will visit there eventually. Or maybe Elaira will?
originally posted by Sleo
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The 'wandering spirit' was for the babe being conceived. It was not for Arithon.
originally posted by Annette
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Pretty sure it was Arithons spirit that wandered off and they needed to get back before he died. This was after all the second death that the Eldest had predicted. Even Dakar said Arithon was spirit wandering.
quote:'Your beloved is spirit wandering. If he rides the winds, that does not mean he's in fatal danger just yet. The effect of the Five Centuries Fountain should balance his health and grant time to seek wiser means than your order's forced mastery to waken him.'
quote:'Then Sethvir steered you to this ugly course to restore my love's scattered awareness?'
quote:His heart, and it was Arithon they were all trying to save. They were not talking about Teylia, Teylia was never lost and she seemed to have been born for the sole purpose of saving Arithon later.Our part draws nigh as hope for the wandering spirit becomes reborn. She who speaks for his heart must not fail! Or the gifted talent her beloved bears will not waken again in this world.
quote:Realigned under the bliss of grand confluence, anchored into the land by his crown tie of attunement, Arithon's strayed spirit became annealed back into his forgotten flesh.
And being reborn yet again, something must have changed, we just never got to see what. The stamp of encounter left by Athera's deep mysteries, was not overly imformative. Arithon had encountered Athera's mysteries before. We never saw much of Arithon to see any changes, but if he asked Elaira to marry him the stars must have been very informative about something.