originally posted by Annette
But the initiate gave her consent for that possible sacrifice when she joined the order. Whether their life force is drained to uphold a grand conjury of their Matriarch, to repair a crystal, or whether only some of the collective whole life force pool is used for healing, is it necromancy? The way it is done is wrong, it is against Ath's law and the law of the major balance, but is it necromancy?
If say Morriel drew life force from a captive Arithon, in order to preserve Selidie, that would be necromancy. He would not have given his permission for that abuse, and she was dead, preserving her existence by an act of possession. But one bad egg does not make all of them necromancers.
Ath's adepts use a similar collective pool of force, but they do it of their own free will, the Koriani Matriarch does not allow her initiates free will.
It is mentioned some where the Koriani Matriarch can prevent a spirit crossing the wheel and hold them captive, that seems a more likely case of necromancy. But have they done that? What were the spirits that came for Enithen Tuer?
If some hidden lot of necromancers probably in Erdane deliberately corrupted the True Sect, the Koriani order is still on Arithon's list of things to put right, so necromancers or not their abuse of stolen knowledge and power is going to come to an end, getting rid of Morriel was not enough.
originally posted by Annette
originally posted by Saffy
I see what you are saying. To me the framing of the entire scene paralleled the scenes of necromancers in Traitors Knot. There was mention of Morriel being able stop spirits crossing fates wheel. Also in the moment of energy extraction the initiate was not consenting, she struggled despite her binding vow to the order. The vow to the order is itself a dark type of magic. Consent is an active thing, given moment to moment. The Koriani method is merely rationalizing their dark practices. I am really convinced the Koriani are the necromantic offshoot. Especially due to the enmity of the Biedar.
originally posted by Saffy
Replying to Neil. I think the Mistwraithe did not kill the brothers because it was trying to manipulate the situation to be released again. Or maybe it could not cross defensive wards to kill or maim but anything short of that it could do.
From memory the mistwraith could have made the curse worse for the brothers so the level of intent implies some hidden agenda - setting them against each other achieves something that killing them both would not? Or either surviving brother could be a key to the future? (In which case why not kill one brother?)
Desh-thiere was made by exiled humans as a weapon and the wraiths, while warped, are still human so I would expect that whatever it’s hidden agenda is, it would still be driven by the human motives that got its founders exiled from Athera in the first place (and absorbed when Marak fell).
Having said that, at the time both of the half brothers were cursed, Desh-thiere had had much more experience on Athera and much more contact (mostly hostile given the fall of the five kingdoms and the disappearance of the Paravians) with all of the powers on Athera than either of the half-brothers (plus whatever shards of Traithe’s mind and powers it still holds), so I guess it’s possible it had other motives involved than simply pitting the two of them against each other, or even plotting a possible escape at a future date.
After reading preview 2, although there were lots of interesting new hints, that might be too dangerous to discuss, a reasonably safe one would be why is Dakar over in Avenor? Even if he fell off the wagon and has been drunk for the past year, Avenor is likely to give him nightmares, drunk or sober.
So the latest peek from twitter has at least two characters at Rockfell contemplating that part of the Mistwraith imprisoned there. I doubt the Fellowship would be visiting, so I think Arithon would be there trying to rescue something Traithe lost some time ago. But Arithon could not I think do it alone, from the snippet there would be at least two people, who else would be there? Dakar has been there twice before, would he have the nerve to make it up there three times, knowing Arithon was going to attempt something very risky, that might see the last remaining part of the Mistwraith escaping? Or would Tarens be more likely to offer his help with a near to impossible task?
From Curse of the Mistwaraith
“Returned to his post at Althain Tower, Sethvir bends his regard toward Rockfell Peak to check the wards which bind the Mistwraith. He finds no flaws, and a small ease of mind, for though Arithon could build on his training and possibly unravel those securities, having suffered to subdue such an evil, Rathain’s prince was least likely to meddle in foolishness…”
Would have been overlooked on the first read, maybe even later ones. But once the Fellowship conclusion about what happened to Traithe when he stopped the main body of the Mistwraith invading Athera was known, those thoughts of Sethvir’s in the first book might have gained an entirely different perspective when read again. If Havish falls and all 5 kingdoms are united as one under Lysaer’s false religion, how would that affect Traithe?
just looking for loose ends in the series…we won’t be able to speculate for much longer!
I am still thinking that the mistwraith wants one brother dead and the other alive…? If Arithon had died I feel that the needed catalyst of Arithon would not happen and some housekeeping we have seen would take longer…and the religion would not have occurred (or would it?)? If Lysaer had died, Arithon might not have been pushed to suffer so much and be forced to learn/innovate further…so Lysaer has actually inadvertently created Arithon as he is today?
but on to the loose ends…
- Traithe is mentioned as at risk more than one…therefore I think we will see him compromised somehow?
- A collusion of Arithon and Koriani was mentioned as a bad thing for F7.
- Arithon with his crown jewels ends up with gifts considered unmanageable (I never understood whether this was by him i.e. self-destructive or by F7 i.e. Arithon might over-ride F7 directive in certain circumstances? (or am I misjudging the scale/limits of F7 power)
- Drakes see humans as insects…why is Arithon something F7 want out of sight from Dragons? Does his elemental powers mean they would see him as a threat?
- Arithon will recognise Dace as who she really is (mention that a masterbard would see through the illusion)
- Paravians are less safe since DC. But why? What is the risk?
- Biedar knife and bindings…so the F7 binding perhaps? Is that even possible? the binding of mist to the wraiths? (although I thought Lysaer and Arithon could have inadvertently separated the mist from the wraiths if they had gone further
- Two necromancer factions exist - could one capture Arithon and the other Lysaer…they must notice the kralovir are not around anymore?
9 the only solution to etarra is to burn it to the ground
- What happened to kevor? Is this a path available to arithon and elaira?
- How were those drakeskull wards achieved? And how come it does not seem to have motivated sesh to further action?
- East gate?
- Why do F7 file the bad stuff with davien? Why not just let the books rot? I suppose the knowledge is available at need for independent initiate study if the F7 themselves consider themselves at risk?
- Biedar v drake? What happens?
- Black rose prophesy
- Arithon mentions fourth age referring to sethvir’s explanation of why they limit humanity technology
17 there are creatures below the earth somewhere ?
- Are there that many paravians left? They are not having children?
Well, grin, that is a list.!I have to resort to about a half a roll of duct tape over the mouth, here:
All in due time…what’s in store will amaze, shock, infuriate, make you scream, and I promise, satisfy every expectation.
Bwahahaha…you’ll have to wait for it, but hopefully, not too much longer.
And this, you won’t know, or find out, about East Gate, that is another branch of history altogether. When this book is done, I am noodle thinking about doing something with extreme back history, First Age, Second, and maybe some other stuff. The submerged part of the iceberg is immense and filled with legendary feats, wild stuff, and hair raising moments.
There are many clues scattered throughout the books of things yet to come, those we have not yet seen will be in Song of the Mysteries. One is Davien’s maze at Earle, who do we think will be sending their spirit though that one to ask help of the elements for Athera’s protection?
Personally I think anything Davien creates is bound to be Arithon’s task to tackle, but you never know with Janny, we have Elaira, Dakar and even Tarens now to consider. Which defender do we think would be tackling Earle?
The quotes from Grand Conspiracy.
Its fastness yet guarded a brooding awareness still primed for Athera’s defense. Through the power focus at Earle, the centaur guardian, Seannory, had thrice laid his claim, and bound the four elements into service for need of the world’s protection.
Wurts, Janny. Grand Conspiracy: Second Book of The Alliance of Light (The Wars of Light and Shadow, Book 5) (p. 307). HarperCollins Publishers. Kindle Edition.
The entry was a sweeping, half-circular arch, chisel-punched from a slab of gneiss granite. A massive boulder plugged the opening, moss-grown and weathered, and possessed of no visible mechanism. The spirit who sought access must win through by means beyond force. The decorative border carved into the archway itself held the key, endowed by Davien the Betrayer. His piquant ingenuity had patterned the geometry beyond the grasp of reason. Those interlocked spirals could tumble a man’s mind into madness, as each loop and line unraveled eyesight into dizzy, ecstatic confusion. No perception bound by substance could decipher that tangle of paradox. As pure spirit, Luhaine was spared the first challenge; he need not engage the esoteric discipline to lift his consciousness free of dense flesh. From his vantage of subtle awareness, the opening point shone as a blue spike of light from the high curve of the arch. To cross the ward, the aspirant must send his naked spirit within to thread the riddle of the maze. This pattern would not yield its mysteries freely. Possessed of a questioning, combative nature, Davien had crafted this maze to test character and wisdom, with no crossing ever the same.
Wurts, Janny. Grand Conspiracy: Second Book of The Alliance of Light (The Wars of Light and Shadow, Book 5) (p. 308). HarperCollins Publishers. Kindle Edition.
Too much to speculate there, but for some, my thoughts…
Lysaer or his minions are eventually going to unite all 5 kingdoms into one, when Havish falls Traithe could take it hard and go into decline. Which is likely to be why Arithon would take it into his head to go assault Rockfell, to restore Traithe. Redeem all those wraiths to get back what Traithe lost, so his mage powers would be whole again.
Arithon and Elaira, the dream team! How could that collusion be bad! F7 will just have to go find something else to do, they will be out of a job. Borrow some dragons and some could do a bit of restoration work at home, start repairing those worlds for when humanity returns, or some might retire and put the feet up, read a good book maybe.
I have wondered about that, I am thinking Arithon cannot change the world order if he has an entranced dragon following him around protecting him. Could be something about his aura perhaps? Paravian grace? Something the dragon would see Arithon becoming?
Not sure Arithon will ever meet Dace, I think the other part of that clue will the one that plays out, true love! Lysaer will eventually recognize who Dace is. Arithon would be meeting Daliana restored to herself, if he is even aware of anything at that time.
Arithon and Mother Dark’s fearful token of ending? I do not think any future 4th age progeny of Arithons will need to worry about being royal, they will be free to choose what they want to be. We will have to wait and see how that knife plays a part in that, if it does. Does it break a binding, or does Arithon use the knife to make a new binding?
- Well power without wisdom is always going to be ripe for corruption, and Lysaer’s religious fanatics whether the current lot or the next lot will likely end up the next batch of necromancers aiming for control of Lysaer. Now capturing Arithon will likely play out different than last time, cannot do it the same, but one way or another they will likely end up as cinders.
9a. Yay! Etarra no more. We can hope.
9b. No, Arithon and Elaira want to start a family eventually, although in Destiny’s Conflict it was explained by one of Ath’s adepts what Arithon’s options were with regards to the brotherhood path. Arithon did not choose any of them, never changes his mind that one. Elaira also did not stay to take that path.
Bummer disappointed we are not at least for some time, going to find out about east gate.
The Paravian Isle was protected, why would there be less Paravians than when they arrived? Some might have died, before Ciladis arrived but after that they would have been OK. Janny might need to explain to us why that has changed after Arithon’s visit. I have not re-read Destiny’s Conflict for a while.
It is not that I am guessing the Paravian population is reducing, only that I think they are not that numerous? And not growing/ maintaining for the moment which implies slow reduction? And they have all their stuff stored in althain? Althain is not that big? Anyway likely not key to humanity’s story on athera?
That their isle once discovered means there is a serious threat is somehow odd otherwise why the secrecy? Perhaps the second drake faction do not like paravians?
Arithon’s jewels meaning his gifts become unmanageable since he likely has to be king seems an issue (why put this in the story otherwise ) - Davien feels F7 power is an order of magnitude greater than arithon (or they have time for longer term plans that arithon’s lifetime) so I assume if he had the jewels they could render him unstable after all? But are the F7 wards strong enough to protect him from the jewels for his reign (which might only be long enough for his children to grow up)
Let’s hope we find out in the next year or so?
Not sure where to put this - certainly a spoiler to put in perils gate discussion.
I wanted to mention the snake like cold purpose something elaira feels when seeing arithon battling the wraiths during Kewar Tunnel. At this point she maybe does not know what the mistwraith is… ? But if she saw something and does not immediately identify it as a wraith I wonder whether she is seeing necromancy in action? Was there another party involved here at this point in time? Or is the mistwraith one of the 3 offshoots of necromancy?
And i suppose there are not so many drakes either…each high kingdom might have been a dragon’s territory originally? perhaps some drakes had low kingdoms below the surface of paravia? I saw that arithon was trapped in the waystone we see he had sheared off some of his being in the original capture by Koriani. I wonder whether this shearing off of his being and - assumed - future reintegration may help him to help Traithe when I assume Lysaer and Arithon do see the need , at some point, to deal with the mistwraith once and for all? Will their elemental powers cause them damage or put them at risk from drakes? The other silly idea I had was what if necromancy was a valuable skill/toolset to survive long space journeys where you run out of food?! They like the dark on Athera to hide from the Reiyaj who can presuambly make their lives more difficult if she sees them? And paravians are, of course, “aliens” to humanity arriving on athera…(as are humanity to them) I remember being shocked that the second age was 18000 years (compared to the 5000+ of the throes age) when mentioned on a YouTube video … however this reference was in curse of the mistwraith when Asandir talks about alithiel…
why is ithamon warded?
Was great gethorn a drake that killed a sun child? And where is/was lithorn?
I doubt there is anywhere big enough below the surface for even one flying drake. Just because they have kings does not mean there would be only a small population, has kingship decreased the human population? The wars they had would have got many killed, but most of them have been living off world while humanity has been on Athera. Paravians did co-exist with humanity for most of the third age, till the mistwraith invaded Athera. The townborn might have had to keep their distance or risk insanity, but they still knew the Paravians existed.
I doubt Lysaer will have any further interactions with the wraiths imprisoned at Rockfell, he is not able to help while cursed, and is likely to be the last of the mistwraith’s influence to be removed. Arithon would not risk the mistwraith getting free when he eventually deals with Lysaer. He would also most likely go to Rockfell before dealing with Lysaer. Arithon would want to restore Traithe before risking failure giving Lysaer and his minions what they want. Even if Arithon has his memory and full powers restored by that time, or is even more powerful than he has ever been, I do not see how he could be sure he would survive and return. So he would tie up any lose ends that might cause problems before reaching that point.
The mistwraith at rockfell
The horrors at Methlas Lake
The Khadrim in the sorcerers Preserve, although he might have a use for them.
Perhaps the second lot of necromancers
Humanity is the most likely to break the compact, either by killing Arithon, the necromancer problem, or wiping out the clans, there would I think need to be some protections in place before Arithon is likely forced to hand himself over to Lysaer, he will know that moment is coming. The ruins of Earle might have something to do with those protections, it is not clear yet which of Athera’s bright mortal talents will be threading that maze to ask, but I will lean towards Arithon.
Necromancers are an abomination, only evil would think it useful to enslave and live of innocents by murdering the living in the horrific rites to preserve their life after death. Now the Biedar ritual that started from, that respects free choice and enslaves no one would be useful, and is likely still being used by the Biedar. Arithon as far as we know, has yet to embrace his Biedar legacy, possibly he could survive his own death by doing that.
That’s a lot of loose ends to be tied up in a one-volume fifth arc. It will be interesting to see how everything concludes.
Well at some point there is still the Koriani and Lirenda to deal with although I think that will be after the dust settles a bit from Lysaer’s resolution. I would have thought that would be Elaira’s problem to deal with, but the Biedar seem to be expecting Arithon to deal with it. He sent Morriel past the wheel with no successor, the waystone that was their major focus stone and store of knowledge was destroyed. There is just the stolen knowledge they have and Lirenda that is left. I am hoping for a change of heart for Lirenda, Arithon is not about to wipe them out to get rid of the stolen knowledge so presumably whoever leads the Koriani is going to have to restore it to it’s original intent? Which would be Elaira?
For better or worse Elaira would come to know Arithon best, but that power that was meant to be transferred to the next Koriani Matriarch is no where to be found, it did not go to Lirenda, Elaira has not yet faced it, Selidie died, Morriel crossed the wheel, where did it go? Nothing else would be changing Elaira, so she turns against Arithon, not that I think she will. Is Arithon himself perhaps the keeper of it? Or has it gone else where waiting to be claimed?
Then there is kingship (or it’s alternative), the restored Fellowship of 7, once Davien is satisfied, and what everyone is going to be doing from the dawn of the 4th age.
I do believe all three of our previews are from Chapter 1 of Song of the Mysteries.
I did finally get a better look at what Arithon is wearing in that painting of a stormy beach scene. He seems to be wearing a white crystal at the bottom of that new Royal(or alternate role) tabard, has he taken such a liking to Elaira’s Koriani crystal that he makes it a part of his new formal wear? After it’s salt water bath in Destiny’s Conflict the quartz was not mentioned again.