originally posted by motley
['WARE! THERE BE STORMED FORTRESS SPOILER HERE!]
Having asked S'Brydion to quit their stronghold, would Arithon actually join forces with Lysaer, using the Light Religion's cause to eventually create harmony between townborn and clan? Maybe not in this book, but hopefully, this Arc?
At some point the Wraiths are going to invade, and Light & Shadow have to work together this would require a reconciliation - can Lysaer actually go free… can his brother sing him free…
The Necromancers are going to redouble their efforts…
Elaira's crystal going back to the Koriani - the crystals are held in subservience to the Sisters - and see Elaira as freedom? The Biedar are their 'ancient enemy'. Surely that's going to draw some of the Koriani fire, over Glendien's child.
The methuri, the necromancers shades, the Koriani Matriarch, the wraiths, The Curse, wyverns, iyats and grimwards… can they too be scoured out with a blast of Paravian inspired music? Arithon's empathy and mastery can resonate with the old paravian rites - he's not necessarily enacting them, just using the principle of entrainment - resonance. The paravians don't have to return…
Maybe he'll found a new line of masterbards and create a bardic culture that can entrain those mysteries… maybe that's why the future people are able to revision the past, they are adept, yet they don't seem to have paravians around… and then the Dragons will not need the F7… Oooo.
Asandir said that Alestron would be sealed until the Paravian's come to judge - but then the ending - where 'for centuries' the passersby noticed that the F7 flag on the topmost keep didn't fade. Centuries.
hm.
(Message edited by admin on March 26, 2008)
originally posted by Neil
Anyone care to speculate on the Biedar obligation that Arithon does not "endorse"?
Presumably the Biedar feel Arithon has a "bizarre obligation" to them but they need his free will permission?
What on Athera could this be?
originally posted by Blue
Embracing Kingship?
originally posted by Clansman
BEWARE: THERE IS A GAME OF THRONES BY GEORGE R.R. MARTIN SPOILER!!
Embracing Kingship indeed?
I am keeping in mind the manner in which Arithon has resolved other problems in the past without F7 guidance, that no one predicted, and with results that were down a path that arose unexpectedly, but logically, when it seemed there were no other choices left to him.
We should not be waiting for what I will call a "foresighted logical" ending. As Janny said in another thread, the logic always appears in hindsight…Cruel, cruel woman!
One thing we have all learned in this series over the last decade and a half is that Janny is anything but predictable. Everyone was mad (forgive my hyperbole) at the way CotMW ended, but that ending was so important to this series being something more than a trivial escapist lark. And you can really see that with utter clarity seven books later. In fact, I think CotMW gave George RR Martin the courage to kill off Ned Stark in A Game of Thrones and to stage the Red Wedding.
I think Motley's speculation bears close scrutiny, particularly about Arithon's bardic gifts being learned by others and passed on. Perhaps the Paravians will never return, and humanity will finally learn how to live with itself and within its environment, thereby taking the Paravians' place. Artihon will take the path least expected, indeed, the unseen path.
And I think that Lysaer will surprise us all, ere the end…
This being said, we are probably waaaaaay off! Still, it's fun!!
originally posted by Julie
Clansman, I agree about Lysaer. Most of the scenes with him Stormed Fortress showed his inherent desire to reagin sanity. Somehow I don't think Janey would write him that way or give Arithon so much apparent trust in Lysaer's salvation if he were to remain the same old character.
originally posted by Christopher Beckett
[THERE BE STORMED FORTRESS SPOILER HERE!]
Clansman, I couldn't agree more that Lysaer will come good in the end.
His innate character is good, just shot through with some very ingrained flaws from childhood which have been twisted beyond measure by the Mistwraith's curse. I think that the core of this entire series is leading not to Arithorn's victory against the odds, but Lysaer's redemption.
His gift of justice will surely lead to him overthrowing the curse, perhaps in the name of a 'sacrifice for the greater good.' As has been said manyu times, Lysaer has a choice and can choose to throw off the curse, if only he can see that he needs to, and his greater empathies would have to be roused for that to happen.
HOW this comes about is clouded, as between Arithon's unconventionality, through the potential issues of Elaira & the Koriathain, Glendien's daughter (who could be salvation or nemesis in the end), Davien and the Dragon, the potential return of the Paravians, escape of Desh-thiere or attack of the Wraiths from Marak, not to mention Lysaer's own issues, almost anything could happen at this point…
But I think Lysaer will be in line for a Snape scale redemption, even though it's been much much much better written and hidden.
As for Motley's idea about the bardic culture, I think it's a good one, but Arithon cannot teach the uncanny mix of mage training, F7 implanted gift of compassion and natural talent (let alone hundreds of years of practise) that makes him the greatest Masterbard ever - although his Lyranthe will clearly have more than a little role to play in the endgame which none of us can possibly see the path to.
But isn't it WONDERFUL to try and second guess Janny, sure in the knowledge we will be so very wrong?
Oh, and I don't think Arithon will EVER be King - should Glendein's child live, then there is another outlet for the s'Ffalen gifts, and crown - perhaps Arithon will be spared the need for the crown, and actually be allowed to retire with Elaira.
Nah - thats too nice and obvious for Janny, unless of course she wants us to think that, and…
My head hurts.
C
(Message edited by admin on November 23, 2008)
originally posted by Jack Evans
**Spoilers** (In all the books just to cover my bases)
It seems that the direct mechanism of the rune the Bieder activated was never told, but since it both seemed to gaurentee a conception and was used as a free consent spirit transfer, maybe the child that Glendien carries is of her body true… but has the spirit of Elaira? or is just carried by her but is really a child of Elaira and Arithons?
It seems this could be what had happened with the legacy of shand when the prophetic talent was wedded into the royal line? Maybe far out there on not much of a basis but the fact that it was glendien's child was always stated by who i consider limited observers.
The fact that the Sanpashir spell broke the rune of conception on Elaira also draws interest, why should they care? Would they waste power doing it for spite just because they dislike Koraithan? (And i doubt since they know of Mother Dark's Chosen's love for Elaira they would bear spite towards her, besides, she does follow the Law of Major Balance)
Ok, now time for you loremasters to tear my theory to shreds :P.
originally posted by Annette
quote:By Neil on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 10:54 am: Edit Post
Anyone care to speculate on the Biedar obligation that Arithon does not "endorse"?
Presumably the Biedar feel Arithon has a "bizarre obligation" to them but they need his free will permission?
What on Athera could this be?
Obligation? Biedar are not like the Koriathain, they are not going to entrap people with oaths of obligation. Arithon would have seen it as their false obligation to him. They are the keepers of the prophecy, Arithon did not like the direction of it. The Biedar believe Arithon is God touched (it was mentioned in Grand Conspiracy) he will not have a bar of it. Having Lysaer set such a fine example of someone falsely claiming divine connections probably did not help.
Possible spoilers.
Since this is the thread for wild speculation, I do believe Arithon is going to have to admit in the end the Biedar were right. Lysaer's fanatics got it wrong, it is not Lysaer who is Ath's avatar, it is Arithon! If you highlight blank bit between the text you will see my extremely rampant speculation concerning Arithon. But we will have to wait for the final book in the series to find out if it is true or not.
As to the Beidar rune/cipher, it has never been connected with conception. It allowed Elaira's spirit to inhabit Glendien's body, with consent. Originally it was part of a sacred rite, used to commune with the ancestry. Elaira's use of it allowed the Biedar ancients the access needed to shield her from the star song, which is how both Elaira and Arithon were freed from entrancement. The grand confluence was what ensured a conception. The Koriathain believed the Biedar weaving is what unravelled Selidie's inset sigil of conception. Perhaps they took exception to Koriathain meddling, perhaps it was to protect Arithon, repay Elaira for her care of Arithon,or maybe it was just that the power unleashed during the grand confluence undid it.
quote:No Matriarch's reach could command the unleashing power that fired the flux. Her most potent sigils would become ripped asunder, undone by torrential harmony.
Or Elaira was also enthralled by the star song, and that had been enough to free Parrien from the berserker's geas. Maybe it unravelled the sigil.
And here is another wild and rampant speculation to add to the thread. Was Ath's avenging angel Dharkaron a legend in his own time? How do legends get started in the first place? Knowledge of Ath, Daelion and probably the legend of Dharkaron seem to have originated with the Paravians. If Athlieria is a seperate dimension that exists outside of time could not a legend from the future have been transferred to an earlier time when the Paravians came to Athera. If you re-read all the books with intent to unravel Dharkaron's origins Janny has already seemingly left a trail of hints for the imaginative. I might not be much of a conversationalist, but yes I do have a good imagination, obviously it runs rampant when ever I read Janny's WoLaS series. Yes I think the legend is based on Arithon's early life on Athera. Who else milled more misguided fools under the wheel. If you highlight the blank space and then re-read the books keeping that thought in mind if nothing else at least you will get a good laugh out of the way some of the lines get reinterpreted.
Edit - Pity the grey writing is still visible.
originally posted by Annette
I wonder if Janny has a solar eclipse planned for sometime in the next 2 books? If so Janny I would love to know the exact date!
As a curiosity, why?
originally posted by Annette
Oh, just rampant speculation about a certain event and wondering how Arithon wiggles out of it. Was looking into some of the symbolism used in the books and got a bit suspicious about the sun. Is there one coming up? Perhaps a certain Reiyaj seeress would know?
originally posted by Annette
quote:Why not let the darkness unveil its own light, and resurrect its next hope of salvation?
That did actually snag my attention at the time, but I never noticed the relevant references to the Sun spread all over the place back then, I was thinking a different kind of darkness. Never mind, I was just wanting to get a hint about the amount of time to pass till then. Assuming there was actually that kind of event already planned. Not going to hurt to sit here in the dark and let my imagination run rampant.
No I was not actually initially going to explain why, since it would be a spoiler if true, but since you asked. And yes I went and had a look through some of the myths, legends and prophecies concerning similar events but thought asking about an eclipse would be simpler and give less away about why I was curious.
originally posted by Jeff
In Dakar's vision that shows Arithon kneeling with Alithiel upraised and active and a male Riathan in the rampant;
if the encounter is 'sourced in balance', I wonder if the Riathan is sentinel for Elaira… or if Arithon is making an appeal on her behalf…
originally posted by Annette
Ever since I got my hardback version of Traitor's Knot and got a better look at Alithiel a suspicion has been in my mind, having looked at the other pictures we have of the sword I have just made up my mind. If you turn the sword upside down, the pommel is I believe a rose, the emerald is the calyx. Apart from Janny always putting a red rose with Alithiel as an obvious hint, the larger version of Alithiel also shows the red of the rose shining off the pommel. I do not recall anyone actually saying anything about this so thought I would mention it, in case anyone wants to speculate on it.
originally posted by Annette
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER perhaps.
p
o
i
l
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s
We start with Arithon imprisoned, and shortly after Selidie/Morriel's little plot falls apart, when he is released. We find out how Arithon was entrapped later on, after more trials and tribulations and no doubt further Koriani mischief did we end up finishing with Morriel reaping the consequences of her actions. Did the old crone finally meet her long overdue end, perhaps that promise to Elaira caused her downfall. Done in by her own Waystone
Probably I am completely wrong, but this is the place for rampant speculation.
originally posted by Annette
Here is another wild possibility. Arithon has mastered shadow how long before he gets a chance to play with elemental light? So many things in the books seem to be hinted at being kept or held in stewardship for Arithon, maybe control of elemental light is the same, Lysaer was just the temp who got to show it's destructive side. Someone else gets to be more creative with it.
So many of Arithon's talents and strengths seem to be paired for balance, what would balance shadow better.
originally posted by Trys
Given that the powers of elemental magic were bestowed by Rauven at birth to each of the brothers (one as a 'dowery' I think and the other in reaction to the King of Amroth's "attitude") I would think the only way for Arithon to acquire the power of Light would be to go see his grandfather. Something I don't think is possible as the West Gate is likely still sealed… and there's still the Curse of Mearth on the other side of it.
originally posted by Annette
I do not think Arithon will get it by returning to Rauven, either he will claim it like everything else he acquires, or when Lysaer dies it will somehow become his. I suspect the same would have happened if Talera had given birth to more than 2 children, any elemental powers gifted as part of her dowry would have ended up with Arithon eventually.
originally posted by Neil
Arithon is known through history or at least "at that time" during the 500 years (see CoM prologue) as master of shadow. Likely that this is his only elemental skill.
originally posted by Annette
Arithon was known in the third age as Master of Shadow, far more to history than the third age. It would be near the end of Destiny's Conflict it would most likely occur, the end of the third age.