Questions after reading

originally posted by Neil

I feel that the curse is a separate issue and the F7 may help to resolve (See FP - F5 discussion with Moriel: Kharadmon states that the F7 won't leave the 2 princes completely unaided or something like that).

I think that Lysaer was cast outside the compact because he endorsed slavery and refused to admit to publically admit his mistakes and stop his "faith movement".

I don't think the curse caused this stubborness…from memory(?) the curse kicked in once the fellowship had passed judgement and even then Lysaer felt one some level that he was losing "something".

originally posted by DarthJazy

Lysaer did offer to stop all that he was doing if the F7 would just entrap both he and lysaer. the F7 refused. Arithon would have gladly been imprisoned by the F7 to save all those lives and so would Lysaer.

I think the F5 are so focused to get Arithon on the throne they are making bad decisions.

originally posted by Jo

Would Arithon give himeself up to Lysaer don't think so he would be sentencing the clans to death. In FP where the F7 are discussing Lysaer's aura (not sure if I can quote direct from the book and apologise in advance tried to break it down) so will break it down saying that the curse drives Lysaer to kill Arithon but it doesn't enslave every part of his self will or has the power to force his heart or spirit to give impassioned collaboration to drive bloodshed and war. Hate drives the curse not conceit or vengeance for vanity.
If everyone said to Lysaer yes well done chap you did the right thing by leading all those thousands of people to their deaths and here's your half brother to kill as well of course he would stop. He let the curse take him (it said in COTM) and lets it control the aspects that the curse can but he controls the rest of his actions. He is quite happy to let men die for is cause which is based on lies and half truths. Think the only truth he has told about Arithon is he is a pirate bastard Lysaer can't even tell the truth about Arithons parentage.
i hope Lysaer does find redemption for all the crimes he has commited how I'm not sure there is far too much blood on his hands.
By the way can Lysaer actually use a sword only ever seems to wield his light display. Wonder who would win in a proper sword fight Arithon or Lysaer.

Anyway sorry for warbling I do go on I was trying to give Lysaer the benefit of the doubt as I had forgotton about the aura thing and the bit in cotm so I will stick to my thoughts Lysaer is one wicked a@$@

originally posted by Neil


"Lysaer did offer to stop all that he was doing if the F7 would just entrap both he and lysaer. the F7 refused. "

- Curiously, the F7 seemed to sidestep the request that the F7 "bind Arithon first".

"Arithon would have gladly been imprisoned by the F7 to save all those lives and so would Lysaer. "

- Seems to be a fair assessment, but I wonder therefore why the F7 did not pursue this? Arithon's free will? They could have asked. Would such a path have caused other issues? Their priority seems to have been to try to keep Lysaer protected within the compact by getting him to publicly deny his divinity stop the slavery at that point in time. Lysaer's refusal on this day made him outcast and any subsequent discussion with Arithon would not change anything perhaps? Lysaer is still cast outside the compact. In any case the F7 are not responsible for humanity in general.

"I think the F5 are so focused to get Arithon on the throne they are making bad decisions."

- Hmm…unfair I think :wink: These guys have a tough job and the contract is not one that they wrote. They have no get out clause :slight_smile:

originally posted by Kam


Is there a particular reason why the King of Amroth was so keen to get a Master of Shadow? In the scene with Talera, he states he was promised one as a bride gift.

But Talera's gift was children gifted with elemental powers - surely someone who could wield fire or water would be just as (if not more so) devastating in naval battles?

Kam - you asked.

The King of Amroth's underlying motive was to further the war, as the book showed.

You didn't get to see what Rauven's stake was, since that would have overcomplicated a bit of the plot that was not relevant to the main story. But there is a story there.

On Talera's bridegift - you have mistakenly applied the term "elemental powers" to apply to the four elements, earth, air, fire and water. Light and Shadow do not fit into that catagory…nor should they.

Elemental power, as Asandir would define it, means that the powers the two princes possess draw directly OFF OF the elements, and in short, influence all of them, without boundaries.

So the power of Light and Shadow do not correlate to earth, air, fire and water, but use the forces of all elements.

What drives the powers of the elements - that would be source for the princes' abilities.

Hope this clarifies -

Sorry I took a bit to get back to you - I've been finalizing the black and white interior art for Fortress, and finishing production on the text. It's had me engrossed.

originally posted by Kam

I see! This explains alot regarding Arithon's abilities and that khadrim in CotM - does this mean instead of shielding himself with what I had thought to be some kind of shadow barrier, he actually negated it's energy? And this clears up my puzzlement regarding the "shadowing an iyat" thing.

Sorry to keep you away from important work, but I was wondering… since Rauven's story is not relevant, I don't suppose we could get a hint? A summary? :stuck_out_tongue:

originally posted by Angus

Instead of a hint or a summary, how about another story? That is, of course, in addition to the story about Mearth. And Verrain.

THIS NEXT PART MAY BE SPOILER MATERIAL for "CHILD OF PROPHECY" (I know it's been out a while, but I don't want to be a jerk).

I got and finished "Child of Prophecy" last week. Wow! That story certainly puts a lot of stuff in perspective. This was the direct ancestor of our hero and our villain (I won't say who the hero and the villain are, because there has been, surprisingly, a fair bit of debate on which one each of our two Princes may be).

This story sure did cement my judgement of the Koriathain as the Twisted Sisters. Talk about a manipulative bunch of - well, you get the point.

My question is, did Meiglin s'Dieneval remarry, have other kids, and carry on the cathdein of Shand's line? Also, what manifestation of the s'Dieneval gift of Sight, together with the s'Ahelas gift of Farsight, do we see in our Princes? Also, does this open the door for a s'Ahlelas ermergence from the Westgate in Arc IV or Arc V?

I know, I know. Janny is just cackling away at me right now. This was a pretty ham-fisted attempt to pry out some of the details from the Wurts inventory of imagination.

Still, the questions are asked, for any who would try (read: dare) to answer…

Angus - well, I daresay if you read Sundering Star (Under Cover of Darkness, just released,) and THEN reread the series - you will see quite a bit you didn't before you perused the short material.

And - hey hey - you have Reins of Destiny coming in December in addition to Stormed Fortress.

now I get to run off, doing the authorial cackling thingie…

originally posted by Angus

Oh, but I did, and am. I read Sundering Star a few weeks ago, in the midst of my CotMW re-read. Won't spoil it though. Needless to say, a very dry area in southern Shand seems to be figuring largely in how this story unfolds…

I still want more stories. What can I say, I know what I like, and I'm greedy for the good stuff. And yours is the best.

originally posted by thomas h. burch

Hey all,

It has been a while since I posted but I have a theory of sort concerning Elaira. We know she grew up in Morvain, which is near Halwythwood. I think i read that Steiven had lost a sister to the headhunters. Both he and Eliara have reddish colored hair and have clairvoyance. Could Eliara be Stieven's sister…Janny???

Thomas -

You asked - Steiven's sister would be stone dead, and not a pleasant passing at that, given the headhunters' alignment in those times.

Sorry to quash your theory – grin.

originally posted by thomas h. burch


Thanks for the response…i thought i was on to something there.

originally posted by Jo

Just wondered in cotm Asandir said that they new what they were about when naming Arithon. Could Arithon's mother see his future with the farsight thing, guessing she named, him could have been his grandfather although normally a father/mother thing. If she did I wondered if she saw all the war, deaths and heartache he was to endure but hopefully she saw a lot of good stuff as well!

originally posted by Jo

I know i put the above question to Janny but does anyone else have any thoughts as to whether Arithons mother could have seen his future?

originally posted by Neil

I think it was mentionnd that his grandfather named Arithon (Feliron seemed to know this in FP).

I do wonder whether we'll see more of the splinter worlds…?

originally posted by Blue

Now there's a good unanswered question - when did Arithon ever get chummy enough with Felirin prior to that point to let him know that Mak s'Ahelas had named him? Or was that just an assumption, perhaps as part of a Shandian royal tradition that the family patriarch or matriarch names the grandkids?

originally posted by Jo

I wonder why Mak named him forger of fate then Maybe he knew something or it could be nothing . Didn't realise that Ferlin had said anything but haven't read FP in a while.

originally posted by Elizabeth Cordts

Just wanted to comment on a few statements posted by other members:

Matthew said: "Justice for one person may not be the same for another person, it seems that having a virtue is no guarantee that it will change events for the better on its strength alone."

In my opinion, I think this is what makes the concept of "justice" so inherently corruptible. "Compassion" is something that you would feel towards anyone, but "justice" in and of itself requires that some sort of judgment or determination be made for either one side or the other. Plain and simple, you can't mete out justice until you decide which side is "right." Based upon one's personality and prejudices, then, "justice" could easily go one way or the other, and we see that clearly with Lysaer. It's obvious that he believes his cause to be "just," but that is because the curse has twisted his perception of truth and backed it with an unreasoning hatred against Arithon.

It makes sense then that the tower for justice was the first to fall in Ithamon. No other trait associated with the other four towers (Honor, Wisdom, Compassion, Grace) is as easily twisted as Justice inherently is.

And now for something completely different:

Blue said: "In later books of WoLaS, in fact, as early as SoM, we saw Lysaer literally put his own life on the line to make a point - such as when he allowed himself to be chained to protest the enslavement of those clansmen captured by the Mayor and sent as convict labor while he was rebuilding Avenor. There were a LOT of townsmen guarding those prisoners, and they could easily have chosen to gut him for his "softness" towards the clansmen. But in that case, Lysaer could easily have called upon his own town loyalists, such as Lord Diegan, who outnumbered the mayor's guard, to save him.

So, he could put his own neck on the line for strangers, but not his own half brother?"

I'd just like to point out that he never really "put his neck on the line" for the clansmen enslaved there. Yes, he ran out there and was chained up, even with the group of townsmen surrounding him. He also had an army practicing only a short distance away, along with Diegan riding up even as he was talking.

I've just started rereading the series after a few years' break (I have to prepare for the imminent arrival of Stormed Fortress :D), and that whole incident of him being chained up to protest enslavement was something I'd completely forgotten about. Rereading it, I was uplifted to see that Lysaer still held some good and proper feelings… until barely two pages later.

What's so chilling about this event is that he turned right around and remarked that the clansmen he'd so graciously freed were weak and tired, and had been released basically for headhunter sport. Sure, he let them go, but in their physical condition and with headhunters right on their trail, it was no act of mercy. He deliberately set them free to be slaughtered. And he goes on to explain that his act of protestation over the slavery was done more out of concern that allowing clan slaves into Avenor would be giving the enemy an opening than because he was concerned about their ill treatment.

Honestly, Lysaer is such a frustrating character. He's such a tragic figure, but a tragic figure who's plummeting straight into outright evil. I was mourning the entire time while rereading CotM, just because I knew what was coming and I hated seeing his wonderful character development on the verge of being fatally undone by the curse. So on that sense, I pity him for being a tool of the Mistwraith. But first and foremost, I can't help but hate him for his blind actions. Maybe he's just a tool, but he's a willing tool who spurns all reason and all attempt to help him to see the truth.

I honestly don't think he can be redeemed. Maybe someday the curse will be lifted somehow and he'll see the error of his ways. But how can anyone who's committed such terrible acts be redeemed? This is different from Arithon's guilt over the deaths of his clansmen. The ones who died for Arithon did it out of free will and with perfect knowledge of why they fought. The ones that died under Lysaer's banner did so because they were misled into it. Their fear was twisted and used in support of the Light's cause, and as a result thousands and tens of thousands died where none needed to die at all.

If Lysaer ever realized that and saw the truth without the Mistwraith's interference, would he ever be able to reconcile with it? I sincerely doubt it, because if he hadn't gone all curse-driven homicidal maniac on us, he would have been decent guy and a good king.

Hmmm… I'd just like to add that this series is the only one with characters for which I feel so strongly.

Hi Elizabeth Cordts - welcome here, I don't think, at least, I've seen you post before?

The chat's pretty quiet, I'm not sure why - usually a post such as your provokes an intelligent discussion.

I know why I've been quiet :smiley: - the next book has me quite immersed. (Run on brain brings to mind that song jingle, "Just you wait, Henry Higgins, just you WAIT…!) You have yet to see Stormed Fortress - stay away from the spoilers, there. :smiley: