originally posted by Jo
See i'm sitting on the fence with this one. Lysaer could well be just not wanting to face up to the fact he is cursed because everything he has done. Enough people have told him and have tried to help him. Fair enough the curse could be corrupting his thought then again maybe it has nothing to with the curse. All these hedge witches he is putting to death but if other mages work for him they are ok how is that justice in any way shape or form. It just seems if someone doesn't agree with him they are killed, no wonder Arithon never stands a chance (not saying it's actually Lysaers fault in all the cases) anyone who realises he is not the evil b that Lysaer says he is gets killed. I don't think Lysaer needs mage training to realise what a curse ridden fool he has been. My view all along has been we don't know har far this curse has corrupted either of them. We don't know if all their actions are curse ridden or not and we don't know if Lysaer is lying to make himself look better or that the curse is making him do it. The cruel lies he made of Talith were they cruse driven or him being an arse, was his abuse of Elain curse ridden or him. Well only Janny will know for sure. Arithon to me, doesn't go and rescue people who are slightly threatened, he is leaving the S'Brydon and I would say they were in a whole lotta trouble! I think I will stop posting as it is driving me a bit insane. I now have the urge to read COTM again to try to get a different perspective on it.
originally posted by Catherine Britt
Quote: My view all along has been we don't know far this curse has corrupted either of them.
In PG, Arithon's passage through the tunnel shows how devastated he was when it exposed his scyring as being influenced by the curse. He constantly reminds the clan and Dakar that he himself is unaware of how far the curse influences his actions and hence his choices.
If one extropolates this, then Lysaer must be even more influenced in his actions and hence his choices and this was an individual who was possessed as well.
…
Lysaer's exposure to mage talent is different to what he knows from Dascen Elur I think. He was astonished at the Ath,s adepts in Athera. They were different to what he knew back home.
His curse driven geas makes him link ALL mage talent as bad. It is not till PG and TK that Sulfin Evend brings his attention to clan inheritance and mage talent. I suppose Lysaer was deceived by the half truth and hence made a false conclusion of mage talent. On SE's exposure he had to rethink again.
It is only on Sulfin Evend's insistence that Lysaer attempts to use mage talent. However, Sulfin Evend is not aware of Arithon's relationship to Lysaer till later. Wonder if this would have made a difference to SE's choices.
…
Lysaer's half truths could be the deceptions and false conclusions that he subjectively creates in the process of becoming a righteous leader. Am not sure if he is being pompous - I just think he is more delusional and his half truths get stretched a lot more.
I think his treatment of Ellaine was pathetic but then his role model was his father. I would have thought that the image that should have reminded him was of his father abusing Talera - but maybe that was the image he had.
…
SE has spoken out a few times. Lysaer when not curse driven has not killed him yet.
originally posted by Iris
Pertaining to Lysaer, there are a few things that come to mind immediately - though I do not have my books here with me to refresh my memory …
Lysaer saves Arithon through the use of 500 year fountain in the desert…
Triath grieves for the character he sees in Lysaer that he knows will somehow go so very wrong (I believe he offers to help him learn how to use his gift) this is while they are in Althain Tower in CoMR …
Lysaer faces the Paravian spirit that has been called forth through Jared (PG) and confesses that he (Lysaer) may indeed be completely insane and curse driven and if that is true then that all he has done is a horror beyond belief, yet if he is NOT, and there is truly terrible evil praying on the world, then he is the only one who can stand against it…so he chooses to do so.
I remember reading this passage through tears due to Jared's fate and the grace of this being that comes. When this happened with Lysaer, it made me see him more far more clearly. His stance we all know to be stunningly wrong, but he does not know it to be wrong. He only knows that it is possibly wrong (this he admits to the Paravian spirit). But imagine what that means to him. All he has done and lost would seem to be impossible to reconcile with. I hope he can somehow be redeemed…but cannot imagine how.
Because, also, in the back of my mind it is the Mistwraith that is to blame afterall…
And I have to wonder what benefit the Mistwraith would get from these horrible wars and loss of innocent lives. Is it simple revenge and a way to keep the two from collaborating? or is it more? Do the spirits of the dead that are lost without having a proper rite somehow strengthen it? The nature of the MW is still such a mystery!
Ahhh now I am back into Athera obsession!
Also - on a lighter note, I saw the Shrek 3 movie this weekend and kept having visions of Lysaer when Prince Charming was speaking…lol!
originally posted by Jo
Just started to re-read curse and a couple of questions for Janny. Would the sailors of Amroth had any dealings with Arithon before the fateful voyage? The way I am reading it obviously the sailors are terrified of him after what he had done but it seems they already know a bit of what he is like. Also were there ever any mages on Amroth. Thank you
originally posted by Angus
Jo: There were mages in Dascen Elur, namely the s'Ahelas decendents of Dari s'Ahelas. Whether there were any in Amroth is unknown. I got the impression they were all in Rauven, wherever that was (no maps of Dascen Elur - Janny? I know, it's not a priority, but it sure would be nice. My imagination just doesn't do it justice).
Good one on Prince Charming. But he is a truly manipulative bastard. Lysaer is deranged, not manipulative.
I retract my "homicidal maniac" bit of hyperbole that I spouted waaaaaay above. Sorry, it was indeed outside the Pale. It looks like Lysaer is getting some understanding.
You know, a lot of people can't understand repentence and forgiveness. It is possible for this to happen to the worst person on this planet. It does not mean that the consequences of your crimes/sin/etc. are wiped away, just the guilt part. You still have to face the music. I predict that the Mistress of the Pen shall surprise us with some kind of amazing yet tragic redemption of Lysaer, probably in Arc V.
Of course, only she knows, and it'll be a few years before we get there.
Cheers!
Jo - You Asked.
Maps of Dascen Elur - intriguing. Someday there should be.
Mages in Amroth - not currently. There is a reason.
Arithon's reputation with the sail hands outside of Karthan - his existence was known to them, and rumor could have lent a fearful edge to the gossip – sailors are about the most superstitious lot going. Not hard to imagine the stories would have been exaggerated. Given the s'Ffalenn reputation on the high seas, adding a son who could wield shadow would have been right terrifying, seen from the outside perspective.
originally posted by Jo
I'm intrigued Janny. Does that mean we will find out why there are no mages in Amroth and does the not currently mean there will be in the future and we will read about it. Not sure if you can say anything or not as could be spoilers for future books.
originally posted by Jo
Just noticed something in re-reading the curse and never in all the times I have read this book have I took it in but it says that the King of Amroth bannished the old lore after his marriage failed.
This is only a guess but that would kind of explain why there were no mages in Amroth and why Lysaer was not trained and maybe why they distrust mages so much is because his mother was one. This is a lot of guessing i have to say. I'll carry on with the re-read and see if there is anything else I have noticed before.
originally posted by Jo
Me again. On the note about Lysaer not being so bad afterall ( because he's cursed didn't the F7 throw him out of the compact because it wasn't the curse ruling all his actions or even any (can't remember where it was written or the exact words could be FP) because if it is the curese ruling everything then the F7 would be very harsh to throw him out. Think they checked his aura or something.
originally posted by Blue
You're on FP, aren't you Jo?
Yes, it seemed a little harsh that Lysaer was kicked out of the Compact, but he just would NOT admit, or even allow for the possibility that he was cursed. That is ONE stubborn monkey boy.
The aura reading you are referring to was one Sethvir helped Traithe with - Traithe is pretty screwed up after his part in stopping the invasion of the WHOLE BLOODY WORLD of Marak coming through South Gate, and was not sure what could be made of Lysaer's problem. So Sethvir more or less "possessed" Traithe, so that he could see the aura, using Sethvir's mage-sight.
Lysaer's human judgment/Justice gift is so screwed up that it is virtually impossible for him to think straight. But there seems to be some agreement on the part of the F7 that he did not CHOOSE to fight the Curse when it came over him in Etarra, due to his ingrained prejudices - yes, I STILL maintain that he is prejudiced! - and that he was ILL USED by the Curse BY HIS CONSENT. Why? Janny is still unravelling that for us. Aside from his prejudices, I personally think he was jealous of Arithon - not only because Arithon is so multi-talented, but also because HE was getting a crown and Lysaer was not.
Back in Mearth, just before he and Arithon found the gate that took them to Athera, he was reflecting on the "uselessness" of his skills, which were primarily centered around a crown he would not inherit due to this exile. Arithon, on the other hand, had skills as a mage, pirate and sailor/ship's officer, which Lysaer felt were more marketable than his own. At this point, Arithon's musical talents were not known, either to Lysaer OR to we, the readers.
originally posted by Jo
Completely agree Blue, also in cotm when Lysaer and Arithon square up in Strakewood it says ref the curse that Lysaer endorsed usage with consent. Also saying that Lysaer surrendered to his passion.
originally posted by Neil
I feel that the curse is a separate issue and the F7 may help to resolve (See FP - F5 discussion with Moriel: Kharadmon states that the F7 won't leave the 2 princes completely unaided or something like that).
I think that Lysaer was cast outside the compact because he endorsed slavery and refused to admit to publically admit his mistakes and stop his "faith movement".
I don't think the curse caused this stubborness…from memory(?) the curse kicked in once the fellowship had passed judgement and even then Lysaer felt one some level that he was losing "something".
originally posted by DarthJazy
Lysaer did offer to stop all that he was doing if the F7 would just entrap both he and lysaer. the F7 refused. Arithon would have gladly been imprisoned by the F7 to save all those lives and so would Lysaer.
I think the F5 are so focused to get Arithon on the throne they are making bad decisions.
originally posted by Jo
Would Arithon give himeself up to Lysaer don't think so he would be sentencing the clans to death. In FP where the F7 are discussing Lysaer's aura (not sure if I can quote direct from the book and apologise in advance tried to break it down) so will break it down saying that the curse drives Lysaer to kill Arithon but it doesn't enslave every part of his self will or has the power to force his heart or spirit to give impassioned collaboration to drive bloodshed and war. Hate drives the curse not conceit or vengeance for vanity.
If everyone said to Lysaer yes well done chap you did the right thing by leading all those thousands of people to their deaths and here's your half brother to kill as well of course he would stop. He let the curse take him (it said in COTM) and lets it control the aspects that the curse can but he controls the rest of his actions. He is quite happy to let men die for is cause which is based on lies and half truths. Think the only truth he has told about Arithon is he is a pirate bastard Lysaer can't even tell the truth about Arithons parentage.
i hope Lysaer does find redemption for all the crimes he has commited how I'm not sure there is far too much blood on his hands.
By the way can Lysaer actually use a sword only ever seems to wield his light display. Wonder who would win in a proper sword fight Arithon or Lysaer.
Anyway sorry for warbling I do go on I was trying to give Lysaer the benefit of the doubt as I had forgotton about the aura thing and the bit in cotm so I will stick to my thoughts Lysaer is one wicked a@$@
originally posted by Neil
Darth,
"Lysaer did offer to stop all that he was doing if the F7 would just entrap both he and lysaer. the F7 refused. "
- Curiously, the F7 seemed to sidestep the request that the F7 "bind Arithon first".
"Arithon would have gladly been imprisoned by the F7 to save all those lives and so would Lysaer. "
- Seems to be a fair assessment, but I wonder therefore why the F7 did not pursue this? Arithon's free will? They could have asked. Would such a path have caused other issues? Their priority seems to have been to try to keep Lysaer protected within the compact by getting him to publicly deny his divinity stop the slavery at that point in time. Lysaer's refusal on this day made him outcast and any subsequent discussion with Arithon would not change anything perhaps? Lysaer is still cast outside the compact. In any case the F7 are not responsible for humanity in general.
"I think the F5 are so focused to get Arithon on the throne they are making bad decisions."
- Hmm…unfair I think 
These guys have a tough job and the contract is not one that they wrote. They have no get out clause 
originally posted by Kam
Janny;
Is there a particular reason why the King of Amroth was so keen to get a Master of Shadow? In the scene with Talera, he states he was promised one as a bride gift.
But Talera's gift was children gifted with elemental powers - surely someone who could wield fire or water would be just as (if not more so) devastating in naval battles?
Kam - you asked.
The King of Amroth's underlying motive was to further the war, as the book showed.
You didn't get to see what Rauven's stake was, since that would have overcomplicated a bit of the plot that was not relevant to the main story. But there is a story there.
On Talera's bridegift - you have mistakenly applied the term "elemental powers" to apply to the four elements, earth, air, fire and water. Light and Shadow do not fit into that catagory…nor should they.
Elemental power, as Asandir would define it, means that the powers the two princes possess draw directly OFF OF the elements, and in short, influence all of them, without boundaries.
So the power of Light and Shadow do not correlate to earth, air, fire and water, but use the forces of all elements.
What drives the powers of the elements - that would be source for the princes' abilities.
Hope this clarifies -
Sorry I took a bit to get back to you - I've been finalizing the black and white interior art for Fortress, and finishing production on the text. It's had me engrossed.
originally posted by Kam
I see! This explains alot regarding Arithon's abilities and that khadrim in CotM - does this mean instead of shielding himself with what I had thought to be some kind of shadow barrier, he actually negated it's energy? And this clears up my puzzlement regarding the "shadowing an iyat" thing.
Sorry to keep you away from important work, but I was wondering… since Rauven's story is not relevant, I don't suppose we could get a hint? A summary? 
originally posted by Angus
Instead of a hint or a summary, how about another story? That is, of course, in addition to the story about Mearth. And Verrain.
THIS NEXT PART MAY BE SPOILER MATERIAL for "CHILD OF PROPHECY" (I know it's been out a while, but I don't want to be a jerk).
I got and finished "Child of Prophecy" last week. Wow! That story certainly puts a lot of stuff in perspective. This was the direct ancestor of our hero and our villain (I won't say who the hero and the villain are, because there has been, surprisingly, a fair bit of debate on which one each of our two Princes may be).
This story sure did cement my judgement of the Koriathain as the Twisted Sisters. Talk about a manipulative bunch of - well, you get the point.
My question is, did Meiglin s'Dieneval remarry, have other kids, and carry on the cathdein of Shand's line? Also, what manifestation of the s'Dieneval gift of Sight, together with the s'Ahelas gift of Farsight, do we see in our Princes? Also, does this open the door for a s'Ahlelas ermergence from the Westgate in Arc IV or Arc V?
I know, I know. Janny is just cackling away at me right now. This was a pretty ham-fisted attempt to pry out some of the details from the Wurts inventory of imagination.
Still, the questions are asked, for any who would try (read: dare) to answer…
Angus - well, I daresay if you read Sundering Star (Under Cover of Darkness, just released,) and THEN reread the series - you will see quite a bit you didn't before you perused the short material.
And - hey hey - you have Reins of Destiny coming in December in addition to Stormed Fortress.
now I get to run off, doing the authorial cackling thingie…