originally posted by Hunter
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Neil - I'm surprised that Arithon rates a mention in the Prologue. For me, the prologue is Janny showing that history is written by the victors (and those who came later) and is interpreted and re-interpreted according to the views, biases and ignorances as the years pass. The Prologue states that "if the canons of the religion founded during that time are reliable" - so the history was written by Lysaer's Religion. Given their current views and understanding of the world, I'm not at all surprised that drakes, Paravians, the Fellowship or the clans get a mention.
I think Lysaer only views the necromancers as an impediment to his plans, so any action against them is for his expedience, not any higher moral purpose.
Who would root out necromancy? It is a shadowy underworld cult hiding away from the view and understanding of the general populace. Much like the Religion of Light really, that's why it was able to prosper so easily basically in plain sight. And would your average Atheran burgher really want to deal with necromancy?
My take on the "point" of the entire necromancy plot is that Arithon's experience during his possession by the Kralovir necromancers will play a critical role in the future when he has to deal with the Mistwraith. My thoughts are that the Kralovir necromancy is somewhat parallel to Desh-thiere's possession of people.
Early on the Fellowship Sorcerors said that Arithon's Bardic skills might allow the individual spirits of the Mistwraith to be drawn on across the veil if they could be separated. Clearly Desh-thiere wouldn't allow this to happen and will attack en masse, with the grace of Paravian blessing backed by the elements, Arithon has potentially the power, and now the skill, to perhaps defang Desh-thiere and give all of the insane entities passage across the veil.
The other purpose is brought up by Davien's upbraiding of Dakar in Etarra when Davien asks Dakar " would you deny him the tempering experience he needs to achieve his heart's desire?". We don't know Arithon's heart's desire in so many words but the escape from possession is a key element to the future story path.
originally posted by Trys
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And might not Arithon's ability to shadowlock iyats possibly be enhanced/developed to deal with wraiths?
Trys
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For myself, like Trys, I'm still pondering possible similarities between the shadowlocked iyats and the wraiths.
The key point here is the comparison between Elaira's grove encounter (before the unicorn) when she describes something very similar to Arithon's shadowlocked iyats. It can't be the iyats because they don't have individual consciousness, so could it be something similar with the free wraiths? (The other possibility is that he will give the iyats consciousness somehow, fully redeeming the works of the great drakes and freeing the F7 from their slavery).
As for the rest of this thread, I strongly disagree that anything in TK is a waste of time.
To me, the true story posed by the initial prologue is just beginning to unfold in this volume - Lysaer's religion is just starting to become entrenched, for example (and that we ain't seen nothing yet - we haven't really been prepared to withstand Paravian presence in numbers ourselves yet). Just look how far Dakar, Arithon and Elaira have come since the start of the series (they're hardly their initial selves).
On other points, I don't believe that Arithon's dealing with the Kralovir is a diversion. I think it's going to be central to dealing with a number of other problems: the free wraiths, Lysaer, the Koriani, drake spawn – all of these want to impose their will over others somehow, and the solution he used against one could work successfully against the others (at least it seems to have for the F7 throughout the Second Age, incidents causing discorporation aside).
Andrew
originally posted by Ellydee
I think that Lysaer and Arithon's roles in this series are akin to Tom Sawyer's and Huckleberry Finn's in Twain's books. 
Just a thought on their relative importance.
originally posted by Wendy Collett
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At this stage, I am thinking that we have to consider the fact that originally both Traitor's Knot and Stormed Fortress were originally going to be the one humungeous book, and that the plot line that developes with the nemocracers is only just beginning.
While in and of itself, Arithon was able to deal with THIS particular bunch of them, this will not be the end of the matter by all means.
Consider the fact that Arithon did NOT want to learn from the black books in Davien's Library, and that eventually Traithe finally convinced him that he needed to learn the information in order to fight them. At the time Arithon said something along the lines of 'but what is this dangerous information, but another tool for the Mistwraith's curse?' - very paraphrased, sorry Janny.
What about the situation where Lysaer now has no protection at all against being taken over and possessed by nemocracers, and is doubly suseptable now that it has happened once before. Oh, yeah, you can't see this happening again in the 450-odd years left to go? Poor Sulfin won't be around THAT long to help protect him.
In one of the earlier books where Lysaer gets judged at Althain Tower, and then has his protection removed on him, from the Compact, Ath's Adept gives fair warning that Arithon will become as 'dark' as Lysaer tries to think he is, but not before Lysaer is totally… (sorry can't think of the exact words here).
Also I believe that while I haven't yet sorted out the full ramifications of it, that the fact that Arithon WAS taken as a captured spirit, and still, somehow (I'm still trying to understand how, exactly), he managed to, at the last minute, exude a force of power of 'GRACE' that affected all nemocracers in that ring, flock, flight, whatever a group of nemocracers are called.
Here's a wild-guess situation - Arithon forms a full alliance of all the nemocracer groups to control the Mistwraith spirits, but at the end of it redeems the lot of them through 'GRACE'.
Consider the fact that there is another arc to go at least. You want to have a different plot happening, you have to start introducing plot elements earlier so that it leads straight in, while finishing off the older one.
originally posted by Hosanna
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I see the significance of the necromancer sub-plot as being obvious already without needing to necessarily develop further, although I have no doubt it will.
To me one of Janny's many themes is to contrast dogmatic religion with real, transforming experience of the divine or numinous represented by Parvians. Lysaer's religion of light was a relatively simple religion - hero-worshipping a saviour to combat a perceived threat by shadows. However the reality of dogmatic religions called for a much deeper portrayal which Janny has given us showing how ambitious and evil people will flock to any source that offers them an opportunity to exert power in society as well as their tendency to exploit the most vulnerable people. Such people often get involved in religions because the followers are looking for guidance and can be easily led. Lysaer himself while seeming to have power and command was in fact a vulnerable person due to the curse and his passionate hatred of Arithon. The necromancer storyline demonstrates the inevitable damage done by dogmatic belief systems. It also highlights the possibility that Lysaer may somehow be redeemed before the end of the series as he is not himself the ultimate evil. The more I think about it I look at the wraiths in Deshthiere and how they were once human I see that the definition of GRACE is that it comes even to the undeserving. It is not earnt but is a gift unconditional. look at how asandir treated Morriel. again with davien we are being led to question his role as "betrayer" we have already been shown that the F7 were fallible and made huge mistakes in the past … I think Lysaer, while he may be held accountable on one level is not to be viewed as a purely bad guy. We are being shown through the two lead characters a chance to compare the merits of a Justice approach to a Compassion approach and I think we see clearly which is favoured by the author. The Old Testament view of an eye for an eye can be seen as a justice approach while the New Testament is all about forgiveness of sins. Jesus befriended the criminals, prostitutes and so on.
The Fellowship have a moral and ethical rule book in the form of their Compact, Law of Major Balance, goal to restore the paravians etc. But they still have difficult choices to make and found disagreement between members with Davien acting as his free will and conscience dictated.
The value of the necromancer subplot I think is already well and truly established.
(Message edited by admin on March 23, 2005)
originally posted by Neil
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Necromancers:
So are the necromancers a continuing thread or will they remain in the background from now on? Are the surviving cults suffiently aware of recent happenings? Do they have a repsonse?
Arithon has not been corrupted (yet?). Arithon still considers this a risk. The F7 seem to have confidence in him though.
Historically, the necromancers seems to be sufficiently in the know to be able to avoid F7 intervention most days so it's curious how this latest strategy fell apart. Why draw attention to yourself? They must be aware of the F7's abilities or did they hope that they were too busy elsewhere?
For 5000 years, N. (and some townborn) appear to be planning the downfall of the F7 and are aware of the risks? But no-one seems aware of the drake-binding which pretty much overpowers anything on Athera…if the human population were aware, would they act differently? Is there ever a possibility that humans could hamstring the F7 (playing a very risky game but the prize is survival free of F7/paravian constraints + space civilisation)? Can Arithon demonstrate an alternative?
N. are just a very interesting phenomena to have kicking about…is this something the clan could/should have policed in the past or might want to curtail in the future? Free-will is one thing but a nasty necromancer neighbour invites some kind of response other than just "ok, well…he acting in free will so it's ok…". Especially if it's your children going under the knife…speaking of knifes, the desert people have protective measures so do they occasionally have to deal with necromancy?
Maybe I've giving the necromancers too much importance and we won't see them again…the worst (grey kralovir) have been dealt with. I'm curious though what potential for mischief exists if their remains are not burnt in white fire. Does the F7 systematically uproot bigger necromancy happening when they have the time as part of the compact (simply because it upsets the lanes?). A small group could continuously get away with murder? Is the plan that one day the necromancers will just fade away due to athera / paravian influence long-term. Increased frequency encouraging long-term change…how many 1000s of years are necessary!? All the time risking humanity's destructon as the present living seek to escape perceived restrictions.
Drakespawn:
If the drake spawn were "redeemable", wouldn't the paravians have achieved this during 5000 years in the third age? The drake spawn
seemed to be imprisoned indefinitely(?). The grimwards also seem to be a final solution (not an ideal one). I wonder why khadrim, for example, are still alive…were the other drake spawn allowed this chance to live but chose extinction rather than imprisonment? Is it important to understand, I wonder?
I'll stop rambing, time to work…
(Message edited by admin on March 23, 2005)
originally posted by Blue
Spoilers ahead! You were warned!
seemed to be imprisoned indefinitely(?). The grimwards also seem to be a final solution (not an ideal one). I wonder why khadrim, for example, are still alive…were the other drake spawn allowed this chance to live but chose extinction rather than imprisonment? Is it important to understand, I wonder?
It is mentioned somewhere - at the moment, my books are playing hide and seek with me - that Ciladis intervened on behalf of the drakespawn, believing that they could somehow be redeemed.
The grimwards are to keep the dreams of the dead drakes in check, to keep them from just dreaming everything out of existence. The only creatures that can actually handle the dead drakes' dreams without being annihilated are live drakes, and only because, as live drakes, they are more powerful than the dead.
Which begs the question, how it is that the Paravians cannot survive the chaos/entropy of the dreams of the dead drakes? Wouldn't they try to help the dead drakes cross the veil fully, and find the final peace of Ath's eternity? Or is it again a matter of free will that the dead can do whatever they want?
originally posted by Trys
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Perhaps the connection between the Paravian and Ath has a great potential to be sundered should a Paravian attempt to deal with a dead drake. Or maybe it's simpler than that. When the Hanshiremen interacted with the contents of the grimward they became part of it and subject to its 'rules'. Would this not also be the case for a Paravian? Might they not be in that 'other' reality.
Trys
originally posted by Ellydee
Minor spoilers, nothing much . . .
This novel, to me, had a very strange feel about it. There were so many plot lines that would have radically shifted the flow of the story (Elaira's child, Arithon's plan to unite the towns, the necromancy subplot that ended far sooner than I was expecting in the series). It almost seemed like the story, the characters themselves were surging forward, trying to make monumental changes in their fictional world, yet some force was fighting tooth and nail to block any and all efforts to make that happen. In some ways, that paralleled Arithon's struggles, so I had my doubts whether or not this atmosphere was intentional.
The character that I enjoyed the most by far was Sulfin Evend. While all the other characters seemed to come full circle, this one was making leaps and bounds forward, questing for the truth of the matter. I am highly anticipating Stormed Fortress to learn what happens to Mr. Evend, and I thank Janny for creating such an intriguing, multi-faceted character. His journey was both riveting and refreshing. He's the kind of character I'd love to be able to weave into my own stories.
And hmmmm . . . Is Jeynsa friend or foe? Will be watching that with great interest as well . . .
I enjoyed seeing the s'Brydion brothers again, and the aged, still powerful Dame Dawr reminds me so much of my grandmother that I chuckle whenever she's mentioned. I was however, irritated by the S'Brydion contribution to damming-up sensation I felt when reading the work (Come on, why wouldn't one want to tear apart his own castle? We did that two years ago for renovations and had a blast!) 
The consummation scene took me by surprise, and I must say I was embarrassed and ashamed of eavesdropping on such a personal act I had to go wash my hands. It felt too much like a guilty pleasure, after I enjoyed the POV play so much.
Overall, I enjoyed the novel, but I am desperately awaiting Stormed Fortress - I can feel the radical shifts looming in Traitor's Knot coming into full effect.
I must say that Arithon is certainly more delicious to me now than ever before - I enjoy it when a character allows their dark side a little room to grow, perhaps it's just my penchant for favoring the Wicked witch of the West over Dorothy. (BTW, anyone read "Wicked?" Fascinating.) I enjoyed a little splash of wicked humor in this new, less guilt-addled Arithon.
On Grimwards: One thing I enjoy about this series is the many levels of reality and their interactions: Athlieria (sp?), the grimwards, Ath's hostels, the reality of the Maze, etc. Perhaps it's unhealthy for these realities to collide. In my meager understanding of it, a being's awareness of their existence is very intertwined with the reality they perceive. Maybe it that reality changed, people would just be kind of swept away? How do you deal with it when your entire reality, that you depend on to understand yourself, goes beserk? (Unless you're a Masterbard, that is.)
My collection of random thoughts after reading TK. My two cents is officially plunked in.
originally posted by Jo
NOT REALLY A SPOILER BUT JUST MY THOUGHTS
Maybe i am naive in reading these books, just re-reading the curse of the Mistwraithe, have the paravians really vanished or has spellcraft just hidden them, as it states that a unicorn saw the light return and held one f7 member asleep, so the mage had obviously found what he was looking for and the paravians did not want him talking.
I think it will be a great shame if in the end Arithon dies, that seems pretty pointless. My thought is that maybe Lysars heir takes over from Lysar and that Arithon chooses a Caithdain to look after his realm, lives out the rest of his life with Elaria and making music after sorting everything out, not sure how on that bit though.
I think Jensa could cause a lot of problems for Arithon but maybe Jiret comes to her in a dream
and sorts her out as well. Hey just guessing.
Anyway my Husband thinks I mad for looking too deeply into a book (series) that I just love. Will I love it if the worse materialises though
Just a thought how can they fight for 5000 years as it appears at the prolog of curse of the mis. as isn't that all they life they have left. I know probably naive in that thinking and where did everything go the paravians, f7 arithon and lysar if they are reading old scripts that hadn't quite all survived and they think that lysars religion was false, did his religion prevail after all. I hope not
originally posted by Trys
Jo,
We don't know where the PAravians are and we aren't 100% sure that the sleeping sorcerer is a member of the F7 though that is the prevailing opinion.
Maybe it's your husband who is nuts. Has he read the books?
As to still loving it though the worse materializes… that's a tough one. There are movies I've seen where I was devastated by the ending but I still love the movie. An example of this is City of Angels (Nicholas Cage/Meg Ryan). I couldn't believe how they ended that.
Trys
originally posted by Joanne
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Is it possible that Jeynsa could turn the clans against Arithon?
Strange I think that Lysaer spreads lies but had thousands of followers Arithon tells the truth and has a few friends and not all people trust him
Why is she going to Melhalla I know to seek council but now she has seen Arithon being sacrificed what can she achieve there accept for his destruction. join the queue for that one.
When the ath adepts said about Arithon going to the dark side or something like that surely the F7 would not have sanctioned him. Or is this one of the test he has to pass.
Lastly in TK with regards to Elaria and Arithon making love- the signal attached to Elaria or whatever it was am I to understand that means that Airthon and Elaria can never make love again. Still don't see how he will survive or the clans.
Lastly I think Arithon could do with a break!
originally posted by Yvonne Sell
Hi guys
SPOILERS FOLLOW
This is my first posting anywhere, but I have been reading all the posts on the site for a couple of months and couldn't stay out of the discussion. These books have been my favourite reading matter for years and I am currently enjoying them another time. What I wanted to point out is that the Great Waystone will probably only be controlled in the future by a Koriani with the help of Arithon (because of his power over the Iyat.) I think Moriel/Selidie will try to use the Stone and either be killed or trapped. Thereafter, Elaira will attempt it, with Arithon's help. Would this mean that BOTH Elaira and Arithon would lead the Koriathain? Could change the whole organisation, having a male co-leader! And think how great it would be having all that power on the side of the F7!
Does anyone think this is a posibility, or am I way out of my league?
originally posted by Trys
Yvonne,
Welcome to the board,
I think your scenario is possible. Personally, I'd prefer that the stone end up in Elaira's hands and that she and Arithon cleanse it of all the failed Primes, the iyat, etc.
Trys
originally posted by Neil
Just a thought regarding the contents of the koriani waystone…I wonder whether Arithon could learn anything "interesting" in there.
How well does either brother understand the history of mankind before Athera (and would it play in this story?)
Yvonne, the fun for me on this board is reading others' ideas…so guess away 
I don't think dependence on crystals is something Davien/Arithon approve of as an approach…so if Elaira/Arithon did lead the koriani it would be a changing organisation…not sure Arithon would seek such a responsibility nor Elaira…
As for being on the side of the F7, I'm waiting to see whether Arithon's choices take him "against" the F7 in some decisions…Davien certainly diverged from the F6…where would Arithon stand I wonder if he has to choose between Davien and the current F5.
Stormed Fortress is going to be very exciting.
originally posted by Belinda Mitchell
Hi Guys
I was mulling over the postings here and the idea about the stones is interesting. In GC and TK didn't Elaira's quartz crystal accept her as partner not master? Could this be the key in stopping Elaira being eliniated/used by the order if she was to get together with Arithon (without being spell stamped)? If so Could Arithons compassion through the empathetic link to elaria be the thing that helps her to control the waystone if this is to occur in SF??
originally posted by motley
And if all Koriani crystals are synched with the Waystone/Skyron in some way or another, could they accept her as partner in concert with her personal quartz? I don't think she could ever 'control' the Waystone - even the F7 said that it was getting too wayward…
interesting syllabic correlation…
originally posted by Yvonne
When I said "control" in reference to the Great Waystone, I really just meant able to use its powers. Elaira is more into a partnership with her crystal now, so it would probably be like that. My point was more that Arithon would have to be involved, to clear the Iyat. The interesting thing for me is how it would change the Koriani as a group and perhaps they could then be of some use instead of just being obstructionist -there are so many things they could do that would help.
originally posted by Trys
I'd like to point out that the line members of the Koriathain are propaply very helpful. It's only the upper echelons… perhaps even the very top echelon that appears to us to be skewed in it's purpose.