Lysaer any sympathy left for him

originally posted by Hellcat

On the re-read this time round I lost more sympathy for Lysaer. His reasons for founding the Religon of Light seems based on the idea that HE cannot accpet that his own pride/stupidity led to Dier Kenton Vale. He cannot admit responsiblity for that mistake, knowing that it will mean that his name will be linked to death, instead to give "Athera. That flaw is horrofic to me, you should always admit responsiblity for your mistakes as well as take credit for your achievements. You do not delude a continent to remove a stain on your good name.

Hellcat

originally posted by Auna

I'm going to wait and judge him by his reactions if he is ever separated from the curse.

originally posted by R’is’n

Isn’t freedom from the curse predicated on his own self-awareness?

originally posted by Neil

My 2p worth…

The reasoning presented after Lysaer's meeting with the Centaur is probably the "last word" so far…

1) Paravian tells the truth => Lysaer is mistaken => big downer for him (just for him + and the 30,000 or so deaths…)

2) Paravian lies => Lysaer is right => All of Athera needs his help (exciting grand cause…)

He swings towards the idea that potentially helping the masses is better than maybe that he is at fault…

Yep, political expedience here is more important than truth… :frowning: I guess the F7 know this only too well.

The Centaur says that Lysaer should accept he is cursed and ask for help…The F7 (or Artihon?) could and would help, no?

Would the paravians be inclined to 'help' or is there a contract to respect? Do they actually "care" about humans? Outside of time they already know what's going to happen? What motivated the paravians to let the humans stay? I guess according to the compact and raw power available that humans pose no risk to Athera…the humans are simply risking themselves…ignorant beings…

originally posted by max

Lysaer IS CURSED and therefore not in his right mind. That makes him incompetent to decide what is right for him. Arithon is also in this position but is slightly more in control of an incontrollable 'illness'. To me it is odd that the F7 who are responsible for humanity, would not decide to take his autonomy away from him in the first place. In an ER of a hosp, if a pt. arrives unconcious or impaired thought processes, a physician determines if a pt. can make decisions for himself. If not, the patient is held until further determinations can be made and sometimes it has to go before a judge. So far a person has not been legally allowed to commit suicide or hurt others. Lysaer has been shown to do both. He is seriously ill and in my determination is not fully responsible for what he doing and therefore should be confined in a way he cannot hurt himself or others until he becomes competent again. I know the F7 are waiting for a consent, or for selfdetermination but it probably won't happen so why can't they 'treat' him, when he is not sane enough to give consent?? I know I am seeing this from an earth view but not just that, also from a medical standpoint. I know the humans on Athera and even the Paravians would not view it this way. But the F7 were from earth. What about compassionate care? If not for Lysaer's sake then for the rest of humanity's sake. Are they not suffering and dying under Lysaer's regime?? Can anyone tell me what I missed in my numerous readings?? [smiling at ya]

originally posted by Neil

Max,

ok, an extra 1/2p then…

I guess "Free will" is the key. Lysaer is an adult and while cursed does have a choice. His character flaws play in addition to the curse. Moriel argued as you have in FP at Althane. The F7 give their response.

Unfortunately, Lysaer was risked due to the the scrying that, in theory, ensures that the paravians return. Presumbly the planet has to survive as well :wink: (F7 are bound to ensure this happens)

The F7 are NOT responsible for humanity EXCEPT where it affects the *land* (F7 conversation with Lysaer at Althain). …the compact is there to guide minimal disturbance to both humans and Paravians.

originally posted by R’is’n

The F7 picked Lysaer over Arithon, because they didn’t want to risk the Mistwraithe learning Arithon’s magecraft. They picked the wrong brother. Arithon would have been able to warn the F7 and possibly shield himself.

I think that’s pure tragedy.

originally posted by max

Now, now Neil, I certainly didn't mean to imply you only had 1/2 penny worth of thoughts. I just enjoy looking at things from another angle. I am an old nurse and assessment habits are hard to break. I certainly will buy that the F7 don't have responsibility for all humanity on Athera. But they definitely have to take responsibility to what happened to Lysaer. They made the decision to throw him to the mistwraith and then after threw him to the wolves. And Lysaer is affecting the world of Athera isn't he? He could be only affecting the human population of course, but telling Lysaer that he has to ask for help is not going to happen because his free will has been compromised by the curse. Yes he has character flaws, but I believe he was well on the way to loving his brother as brothers should, when the curse took hold of him. That is like saying that if you have a flaw in your DNA for cancer, it was your free will that you got cancer. [The insurance companies would certainly enjoy that theory] So I believe Lysaer should have been removed to a location [yes, against his free will] where he could do no harm to himself or others. [Ciladis is asleep, why can't Lysaer sleep?] Now the Koriathain on the other hand have been messing with Athera. Haven't they been messing with the lane forces? I say 'round them up and send them thru the east gate' all except for Elaira of course. well that's my 1/2 penny thought. By the way I will reread that part about Moriel again, thanks for that. But I still believe the F7 need to do more about them then clean up the messes afterword. [smiling at ya]

originally posted by Trys

quote:

But the F7 were from earth.

Were they? Can you point me to book, chapter, page and paragraph that indicates this? :smiley:

Trys

originally posted by Greg Malcom

Actually I think that it is pointed out very carefully. They don't really say that they are from earth. But, at one point I forget the exact place one of the fellowship refers to Asandir as Cal and then states that they were obviously distressed to call him by his original name.

Then when Morriel is confronting Asandir trying to get her the great waystones impression erased from the planet she states that her predecessor was there Calum … gave his weapon or something to the powers that be. Forgive the vagueness I am at work and doing this from memory.

But at any rate these 2 instances infer that Asandir is the person talked about in both cases thus from the same planet as mankind.

originally posted by Neil

hmmm… :slight_smile:

Max, I wasn't at all offended :wink: I use "…" at the end of sentences to imply vague/unsure ideas/statements. Janny Wurts has a tendencey to surprise me so I never feel sure about giving had and fast opinions on this board!

I see where you are coming from with respect to expecting that the F7 should proactively help any human. However, I think that the books explain why the F7 do not act.

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

I had a look thro' FP / GC and PG yesterday evening. The key passages for me are:

FP: F7 passing "formal judgement" on Lysaer
F7 discussion with Morriel
GC: Asandir conversation on boat
FP: Centaur conversaton with Lysaer

Lysaer was given his chance to ask for help in FP. The F7 actually offered to help. Lysaer decided to give in to vanity, label Arithon the "real problem" - his *free choice* - F7 have to respect that by the LoMB.

So Lyaser is outcast by his own choice. His responsibilty. The F7 don't feel good about this but thay cannot act against Lysaer's free will!

The Centaur asked Lysaer to accept he is cursed…

Morriel seems to agree with you, Max. She seems believes in acting against the will of individuals to ensure the masses are protected, for example, capture Lysaer/Arithon in order to limit the curse's effects. The F7 say 'no' (free will must be respected and they must act carefully to avoid risking all life on Athera.

The F7 point out to her that they do not act against free will. The implication is that the F7 once intervened to pursue their aims against free will and the consequences were dire. They do not want to walk that road again. After 10,000 years they have a deep understanding of this, particularly the lack of free will themselves! ("we who are bound…" etc. in GC)

They have achieved redemption and act to avoid situations (at high cost) where they must remove Humanity from Athera (which would means they have "failed" to manage their responsibilties to the paravians to the point where humans would have to 'go').

During the conversation Lysaer accuses the F7 as being at fault for his situation. Do Asandir, Sethvir, Kharadmon and Luhaine feel at fault? It's not clear. They remain silent! However, Traithe "cut's to the chase" and plainly states that out of Arithon's presence Lysaer has suficient free will to resist the curse. The curse is just "hate". There is no excuse to go on a crusade againt "evil" / set himself up as divine etc. etc. (see passage for exact wording)

The F7 meanwhile, when they can, are pursuing the resolution of the curse/mistwraith. Kharadmon did go to Marak. And he came back at high risk. The F7 tell Morriel this. They are not "passive".

Greg, "Calum Kincaid" is Sethvir's birth name and one could assume that this is Scottish in origin :slight_smile: Yes, the koriani order is older than the F7. However, I'm 99% sure "Earth" or "one planet" is not defined yet in the story!

On the other hand there is a mention that the F7 have seen whole worlds reduced to a dust smear (or something like that…). And that they developed the great weapon to do it! My take is that humanity had spread to many worlds using science but without sufficient perception to live in balance with their environment. The F7 (and refugee humanity) probably came in a "space ship" so space travel seems to have been established at that point.

originally posted by R’is’n

Indeed, one of Morriel’s goals is to restore the knowledge of spacefaring culture. (can’t remember exact quote or book & page, trys? :smiley: )

originally posted by Trys

Nope, sorry. Not at my finger (or is that brain) tips. <g>

originally posted by Neil

At the risk of 'overposting' in this thread…

Moriel thinks in terms of restoring 'star travel' to humanity when she attacks Athera (Athera is just an expoitable resource to her) in Grand Conspiracy.

originally posted by Izzy

quote:

Yes, the koriani order is older than the F7.



I would actually debate that comment. From what I understand, the Koriani were founded before "Calum Kincaid sold out his great weapon", but I also believe that the drake dream that summoned the F7 to Athera reached across space AND time. So it's altogether possible that the F7 were fighting the good fight on Athera whilst they were also developing the weapon in another part of space. :smiley:

Regards,

CJ

originally posted by Neil

Izzy good point.

I guess I meant that the "Fellowship with their responbilties ON Athera" not their human origin beings…but yes, you're right, we don't know the exact order of historical events regarding birth of F7 members and creation of Koriani order. Were the F7 born before the wars started => Koriani founded BEFORE. Or were the Koriani founded during the F7 lifetime?

But I think as a whole these events have to be "historical". Humans arrived on athera as refugees without Drake influence (I assume!) F7 are partly responsible for this (Asandir in GC)

"Our Prime Matriarch stood at the right hand of free governance before Calum Kincaid sold out his great weapon and became the destroyer of worlds"

"Amid the suffering and the atrocities of humanity's Armageddon, the Koriani Order had been founded to resist the collapse of higher culture. Their purpose had been to petuate mercy, while other specious, greedy factions waged war, and burned priceless heritage to ashes."

originally posted by R’is’n

They ‘sold’ the weapon…? Interesting. I always thought that they had done the destroying themselves. Clarity, hah!

So I guess it’s fair to say that Calum Kincaid is like J. Robert Oppenheimer (who helped to invent the H-bomb) who said “I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.” And, obviously, F7 the Manhatten Project scientists.

Glad I got that cleared up. The benefit of being on this website!

originally posted by R’is’n

er… sorry A-bomb… not H-bomb.

*senses.the.horde.of.correctors.on.the.hoof*

originally posted by Izzy

I think it's somewhere on this site… I recall Janny saying that basically the drakes dream crossed the entirety of space and time to find a match for what they felt they needed. And they got a match with the project team lead by Calum Kincaid. If I recall correctly, the 7 of them were actually in their ship heading away from the destruction (or somewhat similar) when they were caught by the dream.

Regards,

CJ

originally posted by max

I know I am like a dog with a bone, but I can't let go of this! So forgive me. Lysaer, in my opinion, did not exercise free will when he became cursed. I don't dislike the F7 but they are human at least enough to have erred. I know that Lysaer has made decisions but if Arithon made decisions, and then realized that those decisions were affected by the curse, Lysaer's decisions are even more compromised. I know the F7 offered him help but again the dictates of compassionate care are such that if one does not make responsible decisions regarding their treatment because those decisions are hurting themselves or people around them then the decision to treat that person's illness must be taken out of their hands. It is not possible for Lysaer to exercise free will. He cannot make any decisions that are not affected by the curse, it entangles every aspect of his life at this point. How sad he could never let Kevor know he loved him. How sad he couldn't love Elaine and made a dozen children with her, and for that matter another wife and dozen kids every 100 years or so.LOL And even Arithon is letting the curse dictate some aspects of his life also. He's not married with children either, for a good reason I know, but there it is anyway. Well I guess I chewed that bone pretty well. [now to crack it and get at the marrow!!] GRINNING AT YA