Koriani Protection from the Kralovir

originally posted by George

Janny, this is a direct question regarding the ability of the Koriani to protect against necromantic workings.

In the scene between Enithen Tuer and Sulfin, she states that the Koriani will not treat with the forces which Lysear is jeopardy of. Therefore, Sulfin must request (in a round about way) for F7 intervention.

However, when Sulfin returns home, he is met by a Koriani seeress (with her entourage) in his father's hall. The Koriani are willing to extend their help to Lysear on conditions. Therefore, it would seem that the Koriani have the means to combat the necromancers.

My question is this…Is the ability of the Koriani to defeat necromantic workings premised on the basis that the person seeking Koriani help must surrender their Name in quartz to the Koriathain, and therefore, since their name and consent is sealed, this stops the necromancers being able to usurp the persons Name?

Just a small question! :smiley:

Cheers
George

George: you asked.

Spoilers, be warned.

The answer is two fold (or what I can reveal without bearing on future story line).

When Enithen Tuer said "not treat with" she meant, not associate, bargain, or offer direct interference against. Lysaer at the time was under the direct influence of an active binding.

When Lysaer approached the Koriathain in Hanshire, he was a freed agent asking protection.

Protection they could provide.

Active intercession, they would refuse.

And later, you will know why. grin.

originally posted by Arend

Janny,

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere, but what exactly defines necromancy? Would the imprinting of a mind into a crystal matrix be part of that, especially if the person involved dies? Would the, uhm, creation of Selidie Prime fit that definition?

Thanks! :smiley:

Arend: you Asked, and a rather unpleasant subject it is, too…

Necromancy on Athera is the enslavement and "theft" of another being's life essence for the purpose of prolonging another being's phyisical existence…

Morriel's possession of Selidie would be a "marginal" case. She has borrowed and usurped the body, but the definitive point to be asked is: did she leave Selidie's spirit "intact" in the process? If the essence of the spirit was torn, then it's necromancy. If not, if she's held passively captive, then it's an enslaving imprisonment.

Necromancy is more than an imprisonment, it is vampirism of the life essence rightfully another's, by birth.

originally posted by Arend

Thank you, Janny, for clarifying!

originally posted by Cheryl Detmer

I was wondering also how that necromancy worked. Thanks Janny. That helps me to understand it better. That is a grim subject.

originally posted by R’is’n

The necromancers to me, seem like addicts who get their nightly fix of human essence - and like any addiction, it just takes over the person, who becomes enslaved to it.

Just not sure how the ‘victim’ is able to resist it - after all one can say ‘no’ to drugs - but this is different.

My penny’s worth…

originally posted by Trys

I think resistance is achieve by not putting one's self in a position of giving one of them or their 'acolytes' permission to begin the process. I'm pretty sure Lysaer granted permission… who remembers when and where?

originally posted by Blue

Lysaer's seeming permission came about in PG - what specific place in time that happened is not mentioned. At Narms, in the mayor's palace, as he was coming in for a landing, the mayor watched the blood ritual Jeryiash [sp?] was performing, and saw that this was not the first time. I seem to remember also that the first time Sulfin Evend witnessed this event, he observed the same thing, and was quite repulsed, even through Lysaer's assurances that this was necessary to catch the Spinner of Darkness.

originally posted by Trys

Blue,

Yes, it was the first bloodletting that let in the 'taint'. So to avoid get snagged by the necromancer's one must be vigilent and not grant permission to do things that are, hmmm, problematic.

Trys

originally posted by Blue

Which is what made the blood drawing by a Lysaer lookalike lab tech a few months back somewhat creepy.

originally posted by Hunter

Janny - you raise the rather interesting question of whether Selidie's spirit is still intact following Morriel's possession of Selidie's physical form.

In terms of the permission question, I would think the original Koriani oath would be the kind of blank cheque permission that Morriel could use and abuse at her will… as she's already done.

Would Morriel have required anything of Selidie's aura/spirit/essence or just a physical housing to continue Morriel's ownership and domination of the Koriani? My thoughts are definitely the latter - the physical housing (I'm sure the Koriathain would be fully freaked out by a discorporate Prime - not to mention the Great Waystone is rather dangerous to disembodied spirits!) and Selidie's subsequent dominance of the Great Waystone to show she is the Prime and get around the problem that Morriel's physical body was failing badly.

I'm really hoping that Selidie is just enslaved and tucked into a tiny corner of her body somewhere… it has all sorts of juicy possibilities about Morriel being forced from Selidie's body as Ath's law is re-asserted and Selidie reclaims her autonomy, whether via a trip into Ath's Adept's hostel, or through the Great Waystone or another means wrought by the Fellowship.

The passage in Warhost that talks of Arithon ending Morriel's life could still very well fit here… if Morriel was forced from Selidie's body, could she exist as a wraith or shade? Given her body was burned, she has nothing to return to… would that then force her past the Wheel?

originally posted by R’is’n

Hunter: Seldie’s hands refuse to heal - because of Morriel’s spirit lurking in her body - if Seldie’s spirit was still available in some form, couldn’t Morriel use her essence to heal the hands?

originally posted by skeoke

Perhaps it is Selidie refusing to let her hands heal for Morriel to use and abuse.

originally posted by Ryan Gohl

I believe it is more along the lines of the spirit not fitting the shell.

She cannot heal, because she is not in harmony and/or balance with the body she is inhabiting.

One other way I can think of to put it, the body is attuned to Selidie, and not Morriel.

Janny brings up the concept of harmony and balance throughout her novels. This instance just focuses and humanizes the idea, which of course in reflected in her telling of the larger scheme of things.

Those are my humble thoughts on this. :smiley:

originally posted by Hunter

Roisin, Skeoke,

As Ryan indicates… the healing the Koriani are trying to do is a forced regeneration. Which if the spirit and the body were the same, would be relatively simple. As I understand trying to use Morriel's spirit to regenerate Selidie's flesh is not compatible… hence does not work.

I doubt very much that Morriel would *let* Selidie's spirit surface - if indeed Selidie is still sane/whole/uncorrupted - to effect the healing simply because to do so would tell the rest of the Koriani order what Lirenda knows but can't tell - that it's Morriel in Selidie's body. Of course if Morriel was driven from or voluntarily left Selidie's body and Selidie was able to re-inhabit and regain control, such healing could be effected.

Makes an interesting comparison with Kharadmon taking over Dakar's body at Rockfell…

originally posted by michael hammer

i seem to remember that dakar gave permission. while Selidie near the end of the possession tried to resist. its my thought that Selidie won't be intact if shes gains control back.

originally posted by Dorothy

When Morriel's body died and she claimed/possessed Selidie's body, whose personal crystal was cleared? If it was Selidie's, would this send her spirit insane? I'm not really sure exactly what happenend that night. Can anyone shed some light on it, please? Thanks. I was thinking along the lines that if Selidie's crystal was cleared it would release her from her vows. Then perhaps Arithon or the 7 could do something about her terrible situation.

Hi Dorothy

That's a very good question.

I've had a re-read of GC and the wording is that the Koriani Senior Circle cleared the two personal crystals which lay in Morriel's hand and the dead seer's. Of course, we've no way of knowing whether the personal crystal in Morriel's hand at the time of her death was her own or Selidie's.

The cleared crystal might leave the relevant Koriani unable to act (as happened to a large degree in FP with Lirenda when she temporarily lost her personal crystal). This would leave me thinking that it was probably Selidie's that was wiped, leaving her unable to enact even a rudimentary sort of defense against Morriel's possession (not that she had the skills to clear a crystal, either, which also seems relevant somehow).

I don't think it would cause Selidie to go insane, but it might enforce passivity (some sort of mental coma perhaps?).

I also don't think that clearing a crystal would release a Koriani from her vows. Personal crystals seemed to be tuned and retuned as necessary over the centuries. Only the major focus stones such as the Waystone and Skyron couldn't be treated such because there were no other crystals capable of temporarily taking over their roles.

Makes me wonder what would happen if Selidie should be given a personal spell crystal atuned to her spirit. Would Morriel then have a fight on her hands to remain in possession?

originally posted by Dorothy

Thanks, Andrew-so it wasn't clear whose crystal was cleared.Some times I miss what's under my nose and I thought that was one of these occasions.
I think Arithon might be the man for the job of providing that crystal you mention for Selidie-just look at the effect he had on Lirenda's :smiley:
Mind you, given the huge leaps in his abilities, I very much doubt if he would have to bother with a crystal:smiley:
Time for yet more re-reading.Life's hard for a Wurts fan:smiley: