Just a wild thought and SPOILER for TK:

originally posted by Cheryl Detmer

I just had this idea that what if Lysaer and Arithon had teamed up again to fight the necromancers? Another time and another place. I thought when the Paravian word GRACE came and that protected Arithon and caused the necromancers to be destroyed, I thought it would have destroyed the curse too. I briefly thought it would heal them from the Mistwraith but it just made it stronger. Lysaer will be worse than ever now. ugh so frustrating.

originally posted by Andy

Cheryl, excuse me for being a little dense, but I'm not sure I follow. What does the "it" in "but it just made" refer to? That GRACE would eradicate the curse, but the failure of that to happen made the curse stronger? It's already been a while since I finished TK, but I don't recall comprehending Arithon's trial with the necromancers having an effect on the curse.

originally posted by Cheryl Detmer

I was thinking that as I read that part. It was such a change and freed the people from their captivity and destroyed the necromancers and so much good was happening that I expected the curse to be destroyed as well. I know that was just wishful thinking on my part but it did occur to me that maybe this will destroy the curse too. By it I think I mean the paravian protection that Arithon had but just wasn't sure how to refer to it sorry did it again. lol

originally posted by Maurice Peter Vialle

Lysaer had no (current) connection to the Kralovir.
He (and his curse) therefore remained unchanged by these events

originally posted by Hunter

SPOILERS.

I think the difference is that the necromancers are active possession / enslavement of their victims. Arithon's invoking of the Paravian Grace re-established his right to autonomous existence free of LotMB transgressing necromancers… and perhaps not different to Enithen Tuer's freeing from the Koriani by the Fellowship.

What the Curse did to Arithon and Lysaer wasn't active possession but a change of their character through the Fellowship geas. Which is why the Fellowship couldn't reverse the damage to Lysaer in Etarra in "Curse…" as it would have been removing a fundamental piece of Lysaer.

originally posted by neil

Enithen Tuer v. Arithon.

"No man on Athera is born to be slave" or something lke that. (Asandir in GC?)

I think Enithen Tuer had Fellowship help (they refer to her as an "old friend") to free her from her Koriani vows.

She was freed from a vow she had taken "in free will" which still had a voluntary get-out clause re: "compact".

I wonder how she stumbled on the knowledge?!? Quiet important info. I should think :slight_smile:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Arithon did something at the end of TK than that maybe only a F7 / F7 apprentice could do.

He took no vow to enslave himself. He freely gave himself into Kralovir hands but was enslaved rapidly without the intial personal strength to respond. (maybe the same thing ultimately?)

Then he did something rather wonderful. He was disguised by Davien, had necromancy training from Traithe but I feel he acted on his own merits without calling on the Fellowship.

Janny,

If it is not a future spoiler: *** I'm asking ***

Was Davien surprised by Ariton's method also or did he foresee such an approach? Was he "banking" on it? (You metionned once that Swethvir, etc. were "surprised").

originally posted by Hunter

One point about the Koriani version of free will, which is also very pertinent to Fionn Areth, is to ask at what age someone is able to make a "free will" decision that they won't live to regret? In particular, the Koriani get their initiates very young, as indeed Fionn Areth was perhaps 5 or 6 years old. How can a young child of that age make a life long decision? How can the Koriani in good faith bind their initiates in such a way? It's clear the Koriani have changed over the years.

For Enithen Tuer (and the fire scarred lady in Jaelot) I don't think the Koriani will has such a get out clause, I think it's the Fellowship asserting the right of the Compact over the Koriani binding thereby restoring the autonomy of the specific individual and removing the Koriani binding - which is effectively slavery.

originally posted by neil

Oops hunter ( don't you work in law?) I meant to mean that any koriani has (without realising it) a "readymade get-out clause" available to insert into their koriani oath thanks to the compact…

Elaira expresses her frustration with the oath (to Kharadmon in Ships?) but still doesn't think to *ask*…was it pride / and independent streak stop her from *asking*? I forget… Elaira can't be the only frustrated koriani?

The koriani management are playing a "numbers game" in order to get talent to maintain the higher ranks. They can't wait until any talent has matured enough to have sufficent awareness of possibilities of "escape". Habits of a lifetime are hard to break…hence get 'em young. I wonder whether some fellowship (or likely clan?) resource has been used in the past to thwart the koriani recruitment.

BTW Why the oath of celebacy? (ok they are breeding some talent, or so SE says?)

I'd forgotten the blind lady from GC. Again a lucky escape for her (I think her escape from koriani was detailed are in GC book but I forget…)

originally posted by Cheryl Detmer

I've always thought that too Hunter that the Koriani start them out too young and force it on them. It's like slavery to me what they do but like neil says, get them while their young lol. I think Davien did have this plan with Arithon and knew what he was going to do. He knocked Dakar because he knew he'd go in and interrupt what Arithon was attempting. Poor Arithon has to make those decisions on everyone's lives. It's not good either way but he has to prevent the worst ending and prevent the most amount of lives being lost. The lesser of two evils. Don't envy him.

originally posted by Hunter

Neil… I'm not in law…

However, you have raised a rather interesting point. Before the rebellion, the Compact must have been well known and the autonomy of Ath's Law honoured. I think there was mention that in past times, families sent their daughters to Koriani initiation as an honourable calling - the Korithain received the cream of the crop, whereas now they get beggars, thieves, street kids, anyone they can find to ensure they have sufficient new recruits. I suspect in the older times the initiates were much older and were able to make such a decision and swear the Koriani Oath fully cognizant of everything it entailed.

Given that the Paravians, Fellowship and kingdom law is now mostly a forgotten myth in most parts of Athera, makes sense that no one under the age of 100 would really know about Ath's Law and hence know to ask. Certainly I wouldn't have thought Elaira's childhood on the street of Morvain would have included a detailed study of Paravian language and Law - she is limited by her own perceived limitations.

Oath of celibacy? Outside of Fellowship Sorceror's and spell binders, where would the Koriani find 400 year old men? Or is the Koriani an order dedicated to toy boys? Demi Moore for Lirenda anyone?

Actually probably several very good reasons for celibacy. Firstly, having children and raising a family is rather limitting on their time to devote to being a Koriani enchantress. Then, given they live five to seven centuries and their husbands & children live normal lives, an enchantress would watch their family grow old and die as they did not. Not something normally recommended for peace of mind I would have thought. As Theoden says in the film of The Two Towers (apparently an adlibbed line) "No parent should have to bury their child".

originally posted by max

Actually, my understanding was that the long life is only granted to some of the koriani and that their [DNA??] body has to be tampered with somehow. Andf they really are pushing any law regarding the taking of oaths of children as age of accountability simply does not seem to exist on Athera. The celibacy thing is probably all a matter of finances. They don't want to pay to support families maybe? I know that is what the Catholic church reasoned. [smiling at ya]

originally posted by R’is’n

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER Well, it does seem that the Koriani do breed children from selected lines of clan talents. They keep records of clan lines and their talents. Certainly Seldie has no problems trying to get Elaira pregnant and possibly having parents outlive children - all part of the slavery ‘deal’.

neil - You Asked - (we were away, that's why you had to wait.)

I'd say, yes, Davien had a darned good idea of what Arithon would try to attempt…but would also have been aware that the other route (via Fellowship intervention) was open to him.

He was insistent from the first that Arithon go in educated…and was refused, if you recall, until Traithe forced the issue.

originally posted by neil

Thank you Janny.

originally posted by Maddie

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER
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Qeustions

Right I am confused - I've read TK twice now and I'm still confused. Arithon plans to take down the necromancers (sorry iF spelt wrong)however does he not know that Raite Raven is one of them?

Why is he so confused when he comes round was that not his plan to get captured? I thought he had his farsight back should he have not forseen this.

Also can Arithon and Elaria never have there delightful way with one another because of Seldie as I understood it to be whoever he did have his way with would have a child.

Also about Arithons lack of experience in that department do we take it Elaria is his first of was it that lady in Vastmark. As it seems very clear that he doesn't get his leg over that much. Janny come on the poor man has his needs. Think Dakar makes up for it.

BY THE WAY LOVE THE BOOKS CAN'T WAIT FOR SF HAVE TO SHOUT ABOUT IT

originally posted by Andy

Arithon's plan to defeat the necromancers. Except for the unforseeable touch-and-go moment when he was on the block at the end, I think everything went exactly as he anticipated, including his capture by Raven and the other necromancers. It was necessary for him to be captured and almost soulless.

Arithon/Elaira. The way I recall it, the sigil/trap is masked by Elaira's life signature or whatever it is called. Only Arithon's union with Elaira will supposedly result in the conception of a child subject to a Koriani life debt. I also got the sense that Arithon probably felt like he could have successfully avoided the trap, and that was why he was so angry with Dakar et al. for violating their moment and his trust.

Arithon and Dalwyn. Arithon definitely hooked up with Dalwyn, the shepherdess of Vastmark (does that sound like the title of a David Eddings' book, or what?).

originally posted by max

I have thought and rethought the situation that occured between Arithon and Elaira and Dakar. I have now decided that if I were Arithon, when I came to, I would have screamed at the F7 take your kingship and your paravians and stick them where the sun don't shine! I am OUTTA HERE'!! and then take his lady thru the East Gate. What a horribly humiliating thing to have happen. I would have died of the embarassment. Poor Elaira! [grinning at ya]

originally posted by Jo

I totally agree with you Max. There is not much gratitude for what Arithon does and to do that to him and Elaria is so crule. Arithon said he would not have a child by what Elaria stated he would if it was hers! (i have to say the first time i read it i didn't realise what was going on. A bit slow on the uptake.
Also I think the desert people must have a lot more to do with this story as they think Arithon his a god.
Lastly although I have every sympathy towards Arithon I believe that not fighting is very selfish. To sacrifice his allies just because they know what cause they a fighting just seems completely selfish to me. I hope he gets off the morale high ground to kick some, well u know. If he sacrifices his allies who will be left, no one will thank him for it.