originally posted by rob mackay
i'm going mad and can't find my copy, but how did arithon and fionn get away from lirenda//
originally posted by Laneth Shadow-Walker
*** SPOILER ***
To put it bluntly, he kissed her and they walked out of Jaelot. I don't remember specifics, but yeah.
originally posted by Trys
Just a friendly reminder. White space will not keep spoilers off the search page. White space can consist of spaces or carriage returns. Only real characters take up space. 
originally posted by Laneth Shadow-Walker
*eep* Sorry Trys…It won't happen again.
Also, this question was asked and answered elsewhere, I saw. I should've seen that first before posting.
originally posted by Trys
Laneth,
No problem. 
originally posted by Dorothy
I'm reading Grand Conspiracy again at the moment and have almost finished it. One of the characters is Third Senior Cadgia which got me thinking. Who is Second Senior? Is she mentioned at all? Or is it Selidie? I'm not sure if rank is only connected to ability and position can be earned in other ways. Can someone help? Thanks
originally posted by Annette
Perhaps it was the seventh rank initiate at Whitehold mentioned when they were wondering who was going to take charge after Morriel died. Later when Selidie/Morriel discovers what Lirenda had been up to with Jaelots guardsmen the prioress she talks to is wondering if the decision had gone in her favour (Peril's Gate pg 362 mass market paperback) We were told this aged Prioress was from Whitehold, so presumably if Lirenda was removed from a chance of redeeming herself she would have been the second senior.
originally posted by Dorothy
Thanks for that Annette. Moving on to Peril's Gate soon so I will look out for that. I would suppose the next senior in line after Lirenda would have to be distanced from the first Prime in order to ensure her safety in the event of any disaster happening to Morriel, especially as Lirenda is out of favour.And of course she would probably have a very good idea of what Morriel was up to, so her absence would be essential in any case. I would love a name though - just greedy!
originally posted by Annette
Not even Lirenda knew what Morriel was up to most of the time, I doubt anyone else would have much chance of knowing, especially if they are not around to keep an eye on her. Sorry about the spoilers, I always forget.
originally posted by Dorothy
Just finished Grand Conspiracy for the 5th time so no spoilers for me at least. The seventh level senior is mentioned at the end of the book by Morriel/Seledie who states that the seventh rank initiate would have perished at her first attempt to master the Great Waystone(not a direct quote, just the gist of it)
I always assumed that Lirenda knew that Morriel had taken possession of Selidie as she warns Elaira to behave with Selidie exactly as she would hve with Morriel(Peril's Gate p100 trade paperback); her later horrific punishment, I think, was mainly done to ensure her silence.
I do agree though on other matters that Lirenda was kept very much in the dark!
I really must try reading more slowly so I miss less-hindsight is a wonderful thing!
On a different note-what do you think of the rituals performed after Morriel's body and the seeress die? I was annoyed with myself for not taking note of the blood ritual performed but I am really puzzled about what happened to Morriel's personal crystal. If it was cleared does that mean she has absolutely no restrictions on her actions at all as her original oath to the Koriani order will be wiped?
I know a record of taken vows is kept in one of the major crystals but will that have the same restrictive effect? I would appreciate some ideas. Thanks
originally posted by Annette
Both Morriel's crystal and that of the dead seeress were cleared after the eight levels of cleansing presumably the clearing of the crystal itself was the ninth level. Selidie/Morriel would be tied by the oath through Selidie's crystal, not that Morriel at her age would want to go start any romantic entanglements, what else would she be doing but trying to save the knowledge she protects. She already broke quite a few rules of the order trying to kill or imprison Arithon, I should have thought her attempt at destroying the compact when she attacked Athera would have broken a few as well. As Prime she does not seem have to worry about breaking rules, who is there in the order with the power to intervene? They are all enslaved to the order and have to do what she wants, even if they know it is wrong, it is that or die. Although that promise Selidie/Morriel made to Elaira on the waystone is bound to end up being her undoing.
It seemed that the ritual with the copal and herbs was some what similar to the one we saw Sethvir use in Fugitive Prince when he was using the focus circle to heal Asandir. It will be interesting to eventually see how the similarity came about.
originally posted by Trys
I don't think that Morriel would be tied by oath through Selidie's crystal. It was Selidie, spirit and body, who made that oath and I would expect the body has little to do with the actual 'bond'. Therefore Selidie, who is either trapped or gone, would be the only spirit that would be tied by her crystal. I think Dorothy's question is quite valid.
However, Annette, you make very good points regarding Morriel's past actions. Given what she has done is it likely she is going to do anything that her own oath would have limited anyway.
originally posted by Annette
Probably there is more to the oath than we have seen so far, but what we have of it would not seem to be a problem for a Prime Matriarch.
quote:I, _______, declare myself free to bind
oath to the Koriani Order, From this breath, this moment, and this word, until death, I exist to
serve, this I vow. My hands, my mind, and my body, are hereby given to enact the will of the
Prime Matriarch, whose whole cause is the greater good of humanity, this I vow. All states of fleshly desire to renounce, this I vow. All ties of the heart, of family, of husband and lover to put aside, this I vow. And should I weaken or falter and come to forswear my commitment, all that I am shall be forfeit, body and mind. This I vow, no witness beyond the Prime Circle, no arbiter beyond the crystal matrix into which I surrender my Name and my imprint as surety through all my living days.
Perhaps Morriel's spirit is no longer tied to crystal, but Selidie's body is so I am not sure it is going to make much difference. The waystone has Morriel's oath, Name and imprint, the imprint might be different but is not Name tied to spirit? Morriel went to such extremes to pass on the knowledge she protects, she is still Prime Matriarch and her beliefs have not changed. She has shown no sign of being limited by the tenets of the Koriani code. She seems willing to sacrifice just about anything to get what she wants.
originally posted by Sleo
Interesting thoughts, you guys. I don't think I'd ever wondered before what binds Morriel to her oath. I assume it's the Great Waystone, but in what way can it limit her, I wonder.
And I agree, Annette, that Morriel's egomaniacal behavior seems to be bound only by her will.
originally posted by Paige Madison
The impression I got was these oaths are only binding when the Prime Matriarch chooses to enforce them. There is no automatic punishment and these oaths are not binding in the sense that people are unable to break them. Therefore Morriel/Seldie can break any oath she wants as she is the one who enforces them.
originally posted by Sleo
Another question, entirely, related to those clan on the fleet that sailed with Arithon when he went to search for Ciladis and the Paravians. Whatever happened to them?
I've finished my third read (fourth for some books) and I took particular notice of this. Arithon and Dakar were with a fleet when Dakar had his Koriathain induced 'vision' and Arithon decided to return to Athera. And he sailed alone when he returned. The other clan ships were never mentioned again. Does anyone else wonder about this???
originally posted by Annette
I always presumed the Khetienn when not needed and the other two ships continued the search for the Paravians. Maybe eventually they gave up and retired to Havish.
And just for fun and speculation that string of islets (Los Lier presumably) where the Khetienn was when Dakar had his vision were uncharted by previous mariners. There was no record of them before Arithon's fleet found them.
originally posted by Sleo
Yes on the islands. I think you're right. But didn't the Khettienn pick up Arithon and Elaira at Athir at the end of Stormed Fortress? I wonder how it could then rejoin the other ships? Given no radios on Athera ;)… Of course, the clan is 'talented' as well, so perhaps they have scryers on board?
originally posted by Annette
I do not think all the ships usually sailed together, in the description we got only sometimes was a companion ship or two with the Khetienn. It was mentioned somewhere Arithon could send an iyat with a message, although Elaira was told by Asandir that the Khetienn would make landfall at Athir. Maybe there is a water supply there, or maybe the cook on the Khetienn has something to do with it appearing when needed, arcane guidance.
originally posted by Sleo
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Perhaps. Although for 250 yrs Arithon hasn't been around to send iyats. Although it looks like Dakar has mastered them to some extent.