originally posted by neil
Yeah, I guess Alestron did not fall in the uprising so they feel confident that it's unlikely to fall to Lysaer. (But Sethvir and Arithon have foreseen likely disaster)
The s'Brydians are "superb strategists" (Sethvir)
The fact that they're happy to rule for 5000 years in a similar "state" (maybe a gross assumption?). This, for me, seems odd bearing in mind the clans know their history. Or was there a lot for humanity to do / manage in order to adapt to Athera? 5000 years passes quick when human royalty is dropping like flies due to inability to sustain paravian presence.
Surely it's in the clan's interest to find a way of managing the risk of humanity on Athera or are they "in the system" and don't have the F7's perspective or are they just fire-fighting since the uprising just to survive. Still 5000 years seems a long time as humans count it.
Maybe knowing about the other 2 worlds end gates would add perspective?
originally posted by Annettevk
I can't see the S'Brydions not leaving. They know Arithon and know that he would not ask lightly. And since when have they ever backed down from a challenge. I think that they will decide that they have to leave, after all if Lysaer does move in that gives them a good opportunity for a huge fight, taking back their home. That is something that I think the S'Brydion clan would really like sinking their teeth into, letting Lysaer think that he's won and then taking it all away from him yet again. Anyway that's just my two cents.
originally posted by Blue
There's also the possibility that Dawr and the s'Brydion wives will prevail in concert with Arithon's warning. At the very least, they might get themselves and the children/grandchildren willing to go out of there and let Bransian and the other bullheaded types stand and fight.
And even if Alestron loses this fight, I don't think Lysaer will have light losses, no matter what mage talent he manages for his side. Lysaer depended on superior numbers for Strakewood AND Vastmark, and had his ass handed to him by superior tactics. Not to mention both of those other battles gave him horrific losses.
originally posted by Auna
I can see why the s'Brydion don't want to leave - they are stubborn, proud, and have never been beaten. I think the interesting thing here is that they can call upon the Fellowship for assistance if magic is used against them. The interesting thing is whether Davien gets Arithon involved even though Arithon told the s'Brydion he won't.
This whole thing reminds me of an Age of Empires game I played where I developed the strategy of deleting conqurered troops and buildings. Boy they got ticked at me, but it worked. (Of course they then used that against me later on, doh!)
originally posted by Hunter
Having just finished a re-read of Warhost of Vastmark, the last few chapters where the s'Brydion learn the truth of Arithon's affairs and the duplicious lies that Lysaer surrounds himself are very instructive here. The s'Brydion know that Lysaer is an affront to Athera, a transgressor of the LotMB and no friend to any clan. The s'Brydion only joined Lysaer initially because their interests seem to co-incide. The s'Brydion would enjoy battling Lysaer to combat his lies and for their own very integrity, whether Arithon was involved or not.
Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, there are the founding charters of the original kingdoms, royal jurisdictions and kingdom law to consider. It was said in Warhost… that for a clanborn to submit to the king of another kingdom was a trangression of the original founding charter. Leaving aside the technicality that Lysaer is not the sanctioned royal from Tysan, Alestron is in the kingdom of Melhalla. So any requests from s'Brydion would need to go through the caithdein of Melhalla in the absence of a crowned King. Even up to the Fellowship should probably go through the caithdein. Similarly, any requests to bring the s'Brydion to heel or to have them obey the ruling kingdom law of Melhalla has to be addressed by the kings of other realms directly through the caithdein of Melhalla. It's interesting that in that case, Arithon chose to present his request directly to the s'Brydion rather than beseeching the caithdein of Melhalla to direct the s'Brydion to do what he wanted and then leave the s'Brydion to defy their kingdom law ruler, the caithdein.
In this context, Lysaer is a "foreign" king attempting to enforce his will on the subjects of a different kingdom.
So, the end point of all of this rambling gibberish, is that the s'Brydion are also defending the kingdom charters, crown law and the right of the Melhalla ruling clans to assert their right of existence and pre-eminence within the realm of Melhalla.
Neil - I believe your comments about "happy to rule in a similar state for 5000 years" goes to the heart of why Davien fomented his rebellion. Davien disagreed with dynastic succession - which seems to be the similar state for 5000 years. We don't know how old the Fellowship were, or what roles they played prior to coming to Athera, but perhaps Davien is a student of human history of greater renown than we give him credit for. It may be that there was no single human governance model that lasted 5000 years anywhere else - if that was the case, why should the Fellowship have expected it to work for that long on Athera? Or, perhaps to ask a different question - did the Fellowship actually know how long the Compact itself would have to be enforced when they made it?
The Fellowship have repeatedly said that their service was never to their own kind - it was for Paravian survival. Under those terms, humanity settled as a last outpost on Athera. Who was then responsible, or was anyone, for the development/redemption/recovery/etc. of the human race as a population? Or were they to just exist on Athera with those wanted to do elsewhere politely ushered through the worlds end gates?
originally posted by J
I can't see how Arithon could be king of anything with so much hatred towards him. May be all the fighting and deaths that have occured could all be in vain in the end. Maybe Arithon fines redemtion and is allowed to become a bard more likely he brings the Parivians back and unfortunately they end his suffering in death, who knows very very sad if that happens. I bet Janny is loving reading what we think might happen as it has been said before only she knows what is going to happen.
originally posted by Jo
Need some help understanding something hope someone can help.
1. Can Arithon's powers kill as it appears all he does is cast shadows while everyone else does the fighting.
2. How did their Aritohon's and Lysaers mother die.
3. Do the F7 really care about Arithon or just that he will restore the Parivians and to hell with anything else
4. This is just a thought don't think its classed as a spoiler.
Arithon has made a blood oath to stay alive till the Parivians return does that mean his life will then be sacrified for Lysaers sake as the prolog in the curse suggested that the power of light was a religion and Arithon was evil. Which I interpret as Arithon dies and the light prevailed.
originally posted by Annettevk
Well, I think that I can answer your first question. Yes, Arithon's powers can kill. His shadows can freeze people to death. This is shown in a couple of books, if I remember correctly but am not sure which. Also I would think that they can kill through indirect means, such as someone having a heart attack based on what illusion Arithon has created with his shadows. the other two questions I am not sure of. I think that the F7 do care about Arithon as a person, in fact I think that they rather like him based on some of the comments that they have made regarding our unpredictable green-eyed boy. Anyway hope this helps.
originally posted by Susan Canterbury
To answer your questions:
1.Can Arithon's powers kill as it appears all he does is cast shadows while everyone else does the fighting.
Yes, they can kill. As Annettevk mentioned he can freeze people to death with Shadow. Also, he used his magecraft in COTM to kill. It was his guilt over abusing his magecraft that caused him to go blind to his mage talents.
2. How did their Arithon's and Lysaer's mother die?
It is implied that she died of grief. I don't think it gives a really clear answer.
3. Do the F7 really care about Arithon or just that he will restore the Parvians and to hell with anything else?
Oh, now that is a subjective question. The F7 are bound by the Drakes to protect the Parvians and keep the Compact. That is their first priority. However, I feel they have shown they really do have deep feelings towards Arithon. They have a capacity for compassion that has moved Arithon to tears.
As for the COTM prologe-Janny has been very clear that many people are reading things into that may or may not be so. Don't jump to conclusions.
From your questions I feel you have only read COTM once. It can take several readings to take in all the information. You can't skim even one sentence or you can miss something very important. I have read all the books multiple times and discover something new each time.
originally posted by neil
1) Arithon can kill (it's even "easier" since PG since his powers are augmented). This is the point I feel in his dicussion with Davien "not to kill"
2) The mother, Talera, died of a fever when Lysaer / Arithon were young. Janny has hinted that the mother might not have died from to illness had she been living in Paravia…
3) The F7 respect Arithon's free will to a "point" (i.e. drake binding). The F7 "think in epochs"…Davien sees Arithon as a "weapon". I guess what we have seen is the F7's recognition of Arithon's value to paravian survival. Sethvir seems to want to lighten Arithon's burdens. They understand Arithon and seek to help him where the curse / kingdom issues are involved. Whether this is "caring"? Jo, it's a good question.
I don't think the F7 are "free" to "care" in all circumstances…overall paravian survival drives them…
originally posted by Steve Redpath
Do you think we are likely to see the Black Rose prophercy come to fruition and if it is so will it be the orginal F7?
originally posted by Hunter
The wording in the glossaries always refers to the restoration of the Seven. There has been speculation in the past of whether Arithon would become a new member of the Seven if an one of the original members perished.
The Original Seven were defined by their calling by the drakes and the binding laid on them. No one new could be retrospectively bound - unless a live drake appears to draft in a new person…
Given Lysaer has turned a pretty dab hand at destruction of all that he disagrees with, any chance the Drakes might bind him to something useful for his talents for destruction?
originally posted by Trys
Steve,
I believe we will see the Black Rose prophecy be fulfilled and Ciladis will be found and Traithe will be restored. 
Trys
originally posted by neil
There are so many questions still…
But…the F7 is the F7. There will be no new vacancies 
Although Traithe is at risk to attack it seems…so anything could still happen! But seriously the F7 is a group at a different level and under different constraints. It's not a club where the members change.
1) Why is Ciladis missing? In cases where Arithon/Dakar are drawn in to "save the day" wouldn't the drake binding act on Ciladis to lend a hand? Even Davien has had to come back into the game…
2) The mistwraith is imprisoned several years now. Why haven't the paravians come back? They could sure help the F7 with the grimwards…or maybe they foresee more trouble and it ain't worth coming back yet?
3) The free wraiths appear to be Arithon's to deal with…I wonder whether the general poplace will suffer possession or whether the wraiths would make straight for Althain? Could the free wraith topple the balance?
4) What are the drakes doing?
5) Why is the mistwraith outside the law of major balance? (and I'm not sure what this means anyway?!?)
6) Why has the mistwraith made the compact that much more at risk? (Asandir in GC) Presumably because paravians have left and mankind is free to do what they like as clan/F7 resources to stop them start to be limited…why has it taken 500 years? Was there perhaps a tender balance between clan and town before lysaer arrived?
Throughout the first 3 arcs we are seeing the clan-town (Arithon/Lysaer) conflicts in an increasingly complex context but none of the longer term issues are being resolved…maybe Arithon has to directly help Lysaer rather than the clans but could he do so without Lysaer's consent. Maybe I'm writing nonsense …
Arithon must survive to do whatever he has to do to ensure Paravia's survival so he is not dispensible. He seems to have "missed" the kingship again in TK…
Enough rambling from me
originally posted by Steve Redpath
I think it is likely we will see Ciladis return with the Paravians. As for why the Paravians have not return in the decades since the defeat of the mistwraiths it might be they have forseen trouble but I do think we don't really know why they left orginally. Also neil the law of major balance is not imposed but accepted especially by those with access to the higher powers (Ath's Adept and the F7).
Do you think Lirenda will remain enslaved, it does seem a very harsh punishment even for what she has committed.
originally posted by Trys
It may be that 'defeat' of Desh-thiere is not sufficient (somewhere it states that everything that has been imprisoned in Rockfell Pit has escaped). It may require Desh-thiere be resolved such that it no longer exists on Athera. But only time will tell.
originally posted by neil
Apparently the paravians had no word for what Desh-thiere was…so it's very existence was "odd" to them.
They refused to Name it (and therefore stopped it being accepted on to "the wheel"?)
They would not deal with it themselves and had trouble with life on Paravia without sunlight on Paravia?
Thus they had to retreat leaving mankind to either remove it (LOMB) or letting the F7 "clean up" Paravia by default (Drake binding)?
originally posted by Trys
quote:Given that we know that it is not an 'it' but a 'them' it could be the quantity that made it difficult to Name them. Not to mention that the F7 did not know this for 500 years, I wonder if the Paravians knew it or not.They refused to Name it (and therefore stopped it being accepted on to "the wheel"?)
originally posted by Auna
I don't think Lirenda will remain enslaved since we will eventually have to deal with Seledie/Morriel. An interesting question to ask here is will she figure out how to free herself and what role will she play in the whole deal with Morriel scene. I can't wait to see all this played out
originally posted by neil
I'd like to see Arithon help Lirenda…
I feel the paravians *knew* the mistwraith's origins but maybe did not have the ability to do anything about it…Paravians needed help to imprison the drakespawn (or at least cull some numbers?)…so was the aberation that is the mistwraith also beyond their "scope"? Even thoough they are an intense presence for humans, they are not omnipotent.
In a similar way Asandir protects the ath's adept from "dirty work" in TK?
Was the population of humans on Marak very much bigger than on Athera, I wonder? How long had the human's been on Marak? 5000 years?
If the F6 were willing to let humans on to Athera rather than send them onward (Davien's view), what's the difference between shipping some through south gate and shipping them all through south gate? Presumably the town-born population originally had an interest in staying on Paravia…why wouldn't they just move to another planet given the choice since they could not distinguish between the two anyway…Free will I guess…the F7 seem to have lost the trust of much of the towns…did they have it at the begining of the 3rd age or did the town inhabitants not have any better choices?
Maybe Davien is right…it's a mess 
he he…