originally posted by Kimberly Israel
Hrm…the mentions of the F7 hiding information have been interesting to me. It seems to me that not volunteering information is one thing, but hiding it so as to not have to deal with someone finding it is quite another. It may be that the F7 doesn't feel confident they can keep their charge to protect the Paravians if Arithon has access to all this information, but I still don't really like it. I was actually rather annoyed with Asandir throughout a lot of CotM, with the rather abrupt way he handled Lysaer and Arithon. If I were Arithon in that situation, I'd be very tempted to refuse to walk another step until I had promises that /all/ my questions would be answered completely and that nothing would be hidden from me.
originally posted by Annette Van Koevering
I have to agree with you, Kimberly Israel, about Arithon being peeved about the way Asandir was treating both him and Lysaer. Although I must admit that our favourite feuding fellows were being pretty immature through most of the book so maybe we can cut Asandir a little slack. On the other other hand he is supposed to be thousands of years old so he should have more patience. But on the other other other hand he had been through alot with Dakar's antics and I am sure that Dakar could try the patience of a saint. Anyway I better shup up now because this could keep going and going and going (just like the Energizer bunny).
originally posted by Blue
Anyway I better shup up now because this could keep going and going and going (just like the Energizer bunny).
But Annette… most of us have our pink bunny suits on already. ;^)
Seriously, though, some of the things that came up in CotM do bear re-examining from time to time.
As for Dakar, I remember Traithe telling Lysaer while down in the storage vaults: "Asandir has Dakar for an apprentice, and teaching that scatterbrain anything would frustrate the patience of bedrock."
As for Arithon and Lysaer's immaturity, they were both sheltered in different ways: Lysaer grew up in a royal court, and he was probably sheltered [figuratively and literally] from some of the uglier aspects of the s'Ilessid/s'Ffalenn feud.
Arithon, on the other hand, was raised by a bunch of academics, and was in for a rude shock when he arrived in Karthan, and the rude shocks just kept hitting him like a ton of bricks.
Asandir was musing, while healing Arithon after the arrival from West Gate and the Red Desert, that the hopes of generations were resting on these two, and not having been raised properly in Atheran traditions, they were probably something of a disappointment.
For all that Asandir and the rest of the F7 are thousands of years old, with the accompanying wisdom, they are still human, and still subject to human foibles, as Lysaer uneasily reflected when Traithe told him that Sethvir was desolate if he ran out of tea. Add to that, Luhaine and Kharadmon squabble like the Odd Couple, Luhaine still lectures and Kharadmon loves playing practical jokes. Witness Sethvir's chuckles in WoV, when he reflects on the hoax he pulled off on Lirenda with the illusion of the ghost of Shehane Althain. Asandir had to work to quell his smile in SoM when Arithon acted as a typical s'Ffalenn, preferring to cover himself with the blanket.
originally posted by Kimberly Israel
I have to say, though, that I don't know how mature I'd be acting either if I were tossed through some gate and permanently cut off from everyone I'd ever known with someone who wanted to kill me, and then stranded in a desert and attacked by evil ghost-things, and then taken charge of by someone who seemed to have plans for me and didn't seem terribly interested in whether I agreed with those plans or in telling me what the heck was going on, and who just gave me orders and expected me to obey without full explanations… Yes, that was a run-on sentence 
originally posted by Blue
I think Arithon would forgive you Kimberly, in light of the fact that he has a run-on life. Or run over life, to be technical.
originally posted by Paul Hammond
"Witness Sethvir's chuckles in WoV, when he reflects on the hoax he pulled off on Lirenda with the illusion of the ghost of Shehane Althain."
I loved that! The other thing I loved about it was the fact that if Sethvir *hadn't* set up his centaur illusion, Lirenda would have encountered the real thing instead - and HE would have done much more than just tell her to go away and come back when Sethvir was in…
Over and over, the fellowship act to shield others from the consequences of their ignorance - and yet all the Koriani can do is try their best to disrupt the world and take power.
originally posted by Auna
In some ways I think it might be a disservice to shield the people from harm like that. They don't believe bad things will happen because the Fellowship secretly intervenes all the time.
On the other hand, you have to worry about whether not shielding them would cause more panic and hatred than shielding them. Tricky problem.
originally posted by Neil
The Fellowship does not kill.
I suppose that Sethvir would be obliged to avoid mass koriani deaths otuside his doorstep?
"Fellowsip intervention" within the book is normally forced (e.g. drake binding) or dictated by the compact (e.g. curbing necromancy).
The Fellowship do not intevene outside their obligations to the paravians; mankinds' fate is for mankind to work out on it's own. The Fellowship guide and "foster where they can"…but they are not a guiding force for mankind's destiny.
originally posted by Blue
But what if someone, despite knowing better, tampers with something that could kill them? Surely, the F7 can't save EVERYONE, since it was their free choice to put themselves in danger in the first place - Lirenda in WoV, for example.
After all, the Koriani knew Althain Tower had potent magickal defenses, and chose, instead of being polite and "knocking on the door" as the illusion of the Centaur suggested, she CHOSE to be belligerent, and try to force her way past those defenses using the Skyron crystal.
Had the F7 been so rude to the Koriani, you can bet Morriel would have been screeching with outrage.
originally posted by Andy
I don't know if it is correct to say the F7 do not kill. Perhaps a better way to say it would be that they would chose not to kill (or otherwise violate the Law of the Major Balance) unless they are compelled to do so. For example, the dragon's binding upon them could easily force them to kill every human being on Athera if it were necessary to insure Paravian survival.
Similarly, while Sethvir may chose to exercise his own free will to help Lirenda avoid (unknownly) deadly peril not of his making, I do not believe that he has an obligation to protect her from herself. He may conclude (for himself) that it would be morally correct for him to allow her to protect herself from herself, which seemed to me to be his rationale for creating the faux Centaur guardian.
Andy
originally posted by Neil
Andy,
I'm quoting the F7 themselves on the "do not kill" - see their conversation with Lysaer in Fugitive Prince as to why they cannot easily remove the curse from him or Arithon.
"Obliged" is a poor choice of wording…"inclined" is perhaps better…in this case of Lirenda.
Sethvir is *subtle* before anything so would act in the F7's interests where possible.
Interestingly, killing Lirenda could have sealed Arithon's fate in FP (granted Moriel still needed the waystone to develop her plan) …and also at end of GC maybe? But I guess even Sethvir didn't foresee this?
originally posted by Trys
Andy,
I agree with this statement: " I do not believe that he has an obligation to protect her from herself". There is also the matter of free will. If protecting her would violate her Free Will, then he would not do it… unless overriding issues (drake binding) were to force it.
Neil,
OH YES!! I think you are right about Sethvir and his sublety… but I wonder if this is true of Davien as well. 
originally posted by Neil
Oops…try again…
I'm quoting the F7 themselves on the "do not kill" - see their conversation with *Morriel* in FP
originally posted by Trys
Neil,
Which chapter is that? 
Trys
originally posted by Neil
? Am I missing something / some joke ?
I'll answer anyway
Chapter? 4, 5, 6? Moriel only makes one visit to Althain
In Althain, Moriel demands the F7 something like "what haven't you acted?", implying the royal lines are proof that the F7 act when they are moved to…their response is that the F7 can't act and influence a man's destiny (removal of curse from Lysaer means death and containing either Lysaer or Arithon is intervention…etc etc…and that the quandary is even worse…i.e. all life on Athera.
originally posted by Neil
hmm…oops…seconds thoughts…having actually reread the chapter in FP…
Chapter 3 Sentence
Asandir to Lysaer : "…our fellowship does not kill".
One curious thing I stumbled on in this chapter is that the paravians seem to be have been "at the height of their power and ascendancy" "in the *early* centuries of the third age"?!? What happened during the last 5000 year? Were the paravians waning anyway?
curious…
Sethvir's tears when Arithon makes landfall on Kathtairr seem 'odd' too? Over-reaction or does he foresee more…?
And from the end of the chapter, I'm now wondering about if Elaira (as koriani successor) and Arithon could give the F7 a lot of problems as foreseen?
originally posted by Trys
Neil,
No joke, just thought if you identified the chapter it would be easier for people to find it… i.e., like me. <grin>
Trys