Davien and Humanity

originally posted by max

I also wish they hadn't settled on Athera. It must be damned hard living in heaven when you are mostly regarded as 'barely concious pond scum'.

originally posted by Leonie

Oops, sorry! Forgot about the spoiler heading, apologies to all.


originally posted by Izzy


barely concious pond scum

Someone has been watching too much Men In Black :smiley:



originally posted by Hellcat

I think I've just had a brain wave or brain dump. with spoilers

Is the resolution to the Black Rose prophecy right there under our noses? That Davien doesn't have to undergo a change of heart to become reconciled to the LoMB or the F7. Re-reading P58 the chapter Wakening, Davien sees arithon as


you are my fit weapon to champion the cause of humanity

Arithon's foresight reacts to this with vision of him as High King of Raithain. Is this what Davien wants ? A High King, but one who adheres to a "better" set of laws( I notice here that janny uses the words "ancient law" deliberately not specifying Charter or Paravian law.)

So Davien sets Arithon up with the powers he needs, Arithon embraces kingship and Davien says effectively, "Yes, happy now we have something better than the compact, I will work in concert with the f7." Maybe the system that Arithon will embrace will release the f7 from the Drakes binding and thus the F7 will not only be restored but be restored to be what ever they what.


originally posted by Neil


Davien also tells Sethvir that Davien has set up Arithon as the tool to deal with necromancers.

But the choice was something like "Compact or the Rathain kingship"

I think the compact is likely to replaced with something else, particularly if the clans are decimated to a degree where they no longer exist in sufficient numbers "grass roots of the compact.

Redemption is a sprial…

And is Davien really prophesised to hear reason?

"Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to seven until the Black Rose grows wild in the barrens of the Daon Ramon."

The semi-colon for me separate 2 issues. But I would need an English language teacher to clarify this. Anyone?

can we safely assume?

1 Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason,
2 Davien the Betrayer shall not bow to the Law of the Major Balance
3 The Fellowship will be restored to seven
the Black Rose grows wild in the barrens of the Daon Ramon."

or is it?

1 Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason,
2 Davien the Betrayer shall not bow to the Law of the Major Balance
3 The Fellowship will be restored to seven when the Black Rose grows wild in the barrens of the Daon Ramon."

My grasp of English grammar lets me down again…

what is "reason"?
I though he respected free will etc. = law of major balance no?

originally posted by Trys


I wonder if Davien's complaint is with the Compact or with the use of a monarchy to enforce it. Does he see a candidate in Arithon who can act in ways that he, Davien, feels are appropriate and this would offset his objection to the monarchy?

I think the key word in the phrasing is 'neither'. I think this ties all of the mentioned items together such that Davien will hear reason, will bow to the LotMB and the Fellowship will be restored.

originally posted by Hellcat

For me it is:

Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance.


If Arithon.embracesKingship then {
BlackRose.growing(Daon Ramon)

originally posted by Auna

I was also freaked out by this prophesy and it's implications if the neither doesn't tie in the first two items with the last. To me, neither means there must be more than one thing being referred to, which would be the first two items, so I have hope that all three things will come about if the black rose blooms. Though it will be super interesting to see if it comes about with Davien not seeing reason ever.

I see this as a masterful way to keep us in some amount of uncertainty until the end.

originally posted by skeoke

I may never have a 'humble' opinion, but I do have idiotic ideas…

Does anyone else here wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat wondering if the Black Rose Prophecy bears any relationship to High Lord Kevin's promise to the Unhomed that their long search would be near it's end when triplets were born (or some such)?


Sorry, no more burritos before bed.

originally posted by MJW


Must admit, I'd never considered that. Must also admit, I'm hoping to get a copy of "The Runes of the Earth" for Christmas :slight_smile:

originally posted by Katherine Socha

By the way, I thought this was an excellent book and am not at all dissappointed in it.

Who's to say the fellowship will be restored to any of the original members? The prophecy says the Fellowship will be restored to 7. But what if it's not Davien and Ciladis returning and Traith being restored. What if an entirely new set of people replace them and the original ones are freed from the drake's bindings.

Also, it was the drakes that bound the original F7 and gave them their power. Remember, though, there was a place where Davien told Sethvir he heard the dreams of Haspastion's living mate. There are still living drakes, or at least one of them. Other people could recieve the drake's binding.

Also, I wonder where the drakes are? They're probably not on the second continent, and they're not anywhere to be found in the places mentioned so far. Do you suppose they might be in the Sanpashir desert?

originally posted by Trys

And the glossaries say 'reunity'. So the F7 will reunite. At least that's my take on the meaning.

Or have the surviving dragons dreamed themselves a reality lying in parallel to Athera.

originally posted by Anon


I thought that Davien's motives became fairly clear in Traitor's Knot. He does not want the situation to stay the same - he thinks that that is ultimately a losing game. And Arithon is the key to doing this. [So if Davien knows about the Black Thorn prophecy, then I think that he is very much opposed to it.]

The situation on Athera has stayed the same for thousands of years (F7, Koriani, Clansmen, Townsmen). TK was very much similar to The Ships of Merior plotwise - indicating the constant repetition of the situation.

Davien wants Arithon to grasp his destiny and forge a new path for humanity. By luring him into the Maze at Kewar he forced Arithon to reforge himself. Now by constantly pushing him against the Koriani and also by creating a losing situation for his allies, Davien is preventing Arithon from staying aloof in the background but forcing him to act - to reforge humanity. In the process this could allow the F7 to fulfil their purpose.

Davien tried to change the situation before by aiding the rebellion, but it didn't work: it merely changed the power balance between townsman and clansman. He is hoping Arithon is more sucessful. In a way I think Davien's philosophy is similar to that of the Shadows in B5, if anyone watched that series.

Actually I hope that in the next book Arithon does kick over some of the anthills. If it is just a repeat of Warhost of Vastmark, then I think that I will tire of the series.

By the way, have you noticed that Davien is the only one of the Fellowship who has actually achieved anything positive (the healing of Arithon) in the series? The rest of the Fellowship have either caused disastrous situations (eg foisting Dakar on Arithon, the cursing of Lysaer and Arithon, the visit to the wraith world) or prevented a negative situation.

originally posted by Hannah



Yes, the question of whether it will be a reuinty of the original members (as I lean towards), or if by some stretch, some new members could join… that's what the whole debate is over. It's something that has been discussed a few times before, I think, as well.

Also, a lot of buzzing about the mention of a living Drake since TK has been read… I was pretty sure that that had been mentioned in the series before, but I'm still in the process of picking up references. I know Arithon posed the question in FP on their journey through the grimward.

Anonymous Person,

Foisting Dakar on Arithon is a disastrous situation? I think, at worst, it could be called a draw. Dakar caused some troublesome situations in SoM/WoV, but after that, I don't think one could call him disastrous. I also don't see how "preventing a negative situation" counts as achieving nothing positive.

Janny is not going to rewrite Warhost of Vastmark, unless you choose to read the book with a preconceived mindset of "This is the same as Warhost of Vastmark."

originally posted by Rhett Jones

There is a bit in Peril's Gate where Luhaine demands that Davien speak to him and he tells Luhaine that unlike the rest of them he has acted and if Arithon survives the Maze, he will be ready to take on the challenge of the wraiths.

I don't think Arithon himself will ever rule Rathain although his son or daughter will. I think Arithon may become a figure of legend among the populace while he is still living after Lysaer dies. We know that Fellowship Sorcerors were given new Names when they crashed on Athera, so if he becomes one of the members, he may take on a new name.

As for Davien I've noticed something, he uses the word 'sod' against Luhaine. That's a british slang, so I'm going out on a limb and stating that I think he is of British descent, if many times removed.

I wonder if, after the Fellowship, is Arithon the most powerful human being on the planet?

originally posted by max

LOL. Yes Izzy, I did get that from MIB. But altho I didn't list the credits I did put quote marks around 'barely concious pond scum'. I absolutely love that line!! I really gets across what I had in mind to say and most of all my lines come from mass media. I could always resort to cussing which is my other favorite communication mode, But Trys would probably edit or else throw me off altogether :smiley:.
But aside, alot of books, stories, what have you, treat humans in them as interlopers, or world spoilers. Which is probably as fairly accurate picture of us humans. sSo I don't know why I feel driven to protect or defend them or us. But I do, and so then I get annoyed at myself. [grinning at ya]

originally posted by joe

Ok, I don't know if this has been discussed before but it's been bugging me for ages. We know that the series is based around the meditations of sages in the seventh age of Athera (TCotM). The innitial prologue could be interpretted to suggest that

a. humans will survive to become the sole inheritors of Athera.

b. It is the mythology of the light that will endure the age with Lysaer held up as 'divinity incarnate.' Only a few scraps of manuscript will survive to point to the true facts.

If this is the case then I cannot see Arithon ever taking up the kingship of Rathain and heirs will surely not be forthcoming unless the Koriani order is disbanded (although this is quite possible I admit!) Hence the fellowship will not be reunited.

Is it Daviens desire to see humanity take control of there own destiny free from the constraints of the compact?

Admittadly I've yet to get TK yet (2 weeks late and counting!!!) so maybe I have missed something vital, but it would be nice if some one could clear some of these points up for me.

have a happy christmas everyone

originally posted by Trys


Cussing is one my favorite modes of coummincation (especially when driving though the 'recipients' can't hear me). <grin> But you are right, I wouldn't allow that here.


originally posted by Phil


Been a while since I read the prologue but I can't remember if it is ever mentioned that the seventh age sages are actually on Athera (they could be descendents of bitter exiled Light fanatics).

Also I seem to remember that Lysaer is not mentioned by name - could this mean there will be other 'Lord Of Light's.

And as for the last few points - read TK!!!

originally posted by George

What I find interesting is that the sages of the 7th age discern the "truth" about the master of shadow.

Given that the S'Gannley gift is one of "true sight" that the sages and gifted talent of the Light are none other than descendants of Sulfin Evend who have inherited his gift?

We know that his family produces strong talent, given the Koriani interest in the family line.

my $0.02.