originally posted by Hellcat
Yet again the stuff of much spoil.
OK. Understand why Davien didn't want humans to settle Athera. Understand that he believes that the F7 will have to destroy humanity again. But, IS Davien attempting to induce that destruction??? I'm really confussed.
On the one had he uses Arithon as just a tool, but the very forging of Arithon into that tool indicates he cares. But cares about what? The Paravians and beings? Fuffilling his oath to the Drakes? Humanity?
With humanity alreday settled on Athera does he really want to be the one to entact their destruction? And if so why hasn't he done so? If he's not bowing to the LOMB surely he could wipe humanity out (Leading them into a grimward by trickery for instance would probably do the job.)
Thoughts please
Hellcat
originally posted by Trys
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At one point, in PG I think, there was some indication that Davien may view Arithon as someone who is capable and deserves to rule over mankind… at least that was my take on it.
I'm afraid we still don't know enough of Davien's motivations to guess what he is up to.
Trys
originally posted by skeoke
SPOILERS SPOILERS …
IMNHO (N for never),
I think Arithon was forged as Davien's chosen tool against the Kralovir. (Davien's phrasing, not mine. Mine would indicate growth and choice and understanding)
It seems to me, and I could be VERY off base here, witness everything I've ever guessed at before… It seems to me that Davien was against mankind settling Athera because of what they brought with them - evil? Though, what could be worse than the Drakes dreaming without love?
Davien would have preferred that the refugees be restocked and sent their merry way - possibly killing them if no suitable planet were found - and keep Athera pure, than to have them spoil/infect Athera and force the F7 to exterminate/eliminate/expatriate how many of their descendants with Athera in jeopardy.
Now I just have to find a link between the High Kings rule and necromancy to have the Uprising match the Havens…
originally posted by Auna
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Davien felt the original setup was flawed, so I see him as using Arithon as a tool to set up a more permanent way for humans to live with paravians and not cause more trouble that would force the fellowship to wipe them out. He's willing to risk Arithon to force him to grow, possibly because he's decided that Arithon can handle it, or possibly because if Arithon breaks, another tool will come in time. When you live basically forever, time loses meaning.
As long as the paravians and Athera are at risk, the fellowship will never be rid of their task due to the dragon oath. Something has to change to allow them to fulfill their obligation and be able to go their own way. I think Davien is trying to achieve that.
originally posted by Hannah
I agree with Trys. I'm of course disapproving of the seeming ruthlessness of some of Davien's actions and thoughts on the surface level, but I can't claim to understand his motives, so I'll reserve judgment (JUDGMENT AND DAMNATION AHAHAHAHAHA! Er, no seriously.) If Arithon can't understand him, and the Fellowship have their qualms, damned if I'll give it a go.
originally posted by Izzy
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quote:I think Arithon was forged as Davien's chosen tool against the Kralovir.
I believe that there is a hell of alot more to Davien's motives than just the Kralovir. It's so very unlike Janny to have things setup this way from the beginning (five centuries fountain plus the trip through Kewar) just to get rid of some pesky necromancers that the F6 themselves could handle.
Regards,
CJ
originally posted by Leonie
When I read all the previous posts, the first thing I thought of was Davien's comment about Paravian survival in answer to Arithon's question (pg 59 TK trade paperback) "Ciladis would willingly speak on that point, if you should ever chance to encounter him. Whatever he might say, the primary issue was never in doubt. Paravian survival is paramount." My interpretation on Davien (at this point in time) is that to him, with or without the drakes' binding, he would do anything to ensure Paravian survival.
Whether this is at the root of his disagreement with the rest of the fellowship regarding humanity's presence on Athera or not, I can't say, but I would tend to think so.
I suspect that Davien has more than a little of the "s'Ahelas farsight" of his own. He seems to have a much more forward thinking trait than even Sethvir. There is one particular moment that keeps popping into the back of my mind - it's where one of the F7 says something like "Davien could have taken some of the Grimward strain off Sethvir" (not in those words, obviously!) and I read the implication of that statement as "sharing the load" rather than repairing the grimwards as Asandir has been doing. Does this imply that Davien has the far ranging ability to segment his consciousness that Sethvir has? Not sure, but very intrigued about that little statement. 
Davien is certainly "forging" Arithon, but I'm certain it's for more than simply the demise of the necromancers. There's the lovely little reminder from the centaur on pg 220 of TK "Fate's forger, you were Named. There lies your destiny, ripe for the hour when you finally embrace the full reach and strength of your power." Obviously Arithon has changed enormously - Kewar's tunnel did drastic things to him. He is emotionally more whole than he has ever been previously portrayed. His mage talents have enlarged, his s'Ahelas farsight is operating spontaneously and globally, his birth born shadow mastery is enormously enhanced, and his masterbard's talent is expanded. And he still hasn't quite integrated them all together - imagine what he might become with it all under control and acting in synergy. The F7 are good, but are they that good??? (Maybe just different. )
Have I made any sense? Comments please!
Leonie
originally posted by Kam
SPOILERS YADDA YADDA YADDA YATT
I'd have to agree with Leonie on her interpretation of Davien's current motives. Actually, I've been waiting ages for someone to start this, because I had typed up a semi-incoherent rant on this topic when my mind was finally starting to settle down.
I'll post it here where people won't look at me funny. 
–
Why did Davien create the Uprising? I'm guessing it's to break the Compact. He's already proved himself no friend of the whole deal: "I have no desire to labour for ages, with failure being the axe blade poised over my neck." It's not so much that he's heartless, rather he foresees the risk of humanity's leave upon Athera, since "Paravian survival is paramount" and the very presence of mankind endangers that race. He doesn't want a repeat of the incident Calum wrought, he doesn't want humanity to have to suffer that same horror eons before.
So when outvoted by the rest of the Fellowship for both the arrival of mankind and the system of government chosen, Davien naturally would like to break free. Doesn't Asandir say something along the lines of those who are in captivity long for freedom all the more? The Uprising, I'm guessing, was probably created in the hopes of breaking the Compact.
Does that mean he wants to kill everyone? I doubt it. Breaking the compact doesn't necessarily equate to mass murder.
It makes sense, or to me anyway, that this was Davien's motive. The time of it, when the Fellowship, the Kings, the Paravians and the clan born were all occupied with the invasion of the Mistwraith suggests that Davien planned to force the Fellowship hand. To make a choice between their two objectives: Paravian Survival or The Monarchy. He misjudged their response, I think. If they backed off to protect their Kingdoms, the Mistwraith would win through and threaten Paravian survival. So naturally he thought they would stay to defend the main objective. But instead, the Fellowship backed away, the Mistwraith won through and only Traithe' intervention prevented complete disaster, and the Paravians vanished. The monarchy crumbled, as Davien had planned… but the greater goal was threatened. I think this makes sense to Davien's comment about it being his own "personal version of the Havens." His main successful objective was exactly what it appeared to be: Like Arithon's massacre. But the secondary objective failed, the Fellowship would not abandon their Compact and the Paravians were endangered as well.
The so called "punishment," I think is meant to appear like that. Janny's already said that it wasn't so, but the Fellowship seem to have made no effort to discourage that mistaken impression. So I believe that this is what was planned at the outset. Davien volunteered himself for the whole transfer thing, as the scapegoat. He already knew that the the price of failure would be to take the blame: "If their choice was to stand, I had to fall. They had committed too much to revoke their position. I expected no more, and no less than the fate their hand dealt me before I chose exile." Which also brings into light the fact that Davien knew exactly what had to happen if he failed. I guess there was an augury or a scrying like Arithon's one prior to the Havens and he saw both possibilities. Or maybe he was just farsighted.
But this whole deal didn't actually happen until 100 years after the Uprising. I don't really understand why they would wait so long, although I suppose they have to lick their wounds first and then cast the blame. But surely… not 100 years? Another thing would be that the length of time would mean that most of those directly involved in the Uprising would have died and the Fellowship were free to cast whatever impression they intended upon the populace. I dunno.
After the disaster, Davien's left to clean up the mess he made, while the rest of the Fellowship re-cooperate from their loss. The Five Centuries Fountain proves this, I think. It makes sense that Davien built this fountain for one purpose: so that Arithon would have enough life span to complete his full destiny. It seems very suspicious to me that Davien would even built something like this out in the middle of nowhere and guard it, without having some interior motive. Davien's already said that his plan is to mould Arithon into a weapon (but for what…?) so yes, I'm thinking that the Fountain was purely for Arithon's sake. This also suggests to me that he had some vision prior to everything. I'm not sure if it was built before the Uprising or after it, but either way, it doesn't matter that much. Before would suggest that Davien had planned a safety net in case things went haywire. After would mean that he attempted to save the train wreck aftermath. Paravian survival depends directly on Arithon doing the same, so it seems to me that Arithon's destiny, so to speak, is to bring them back out of hiding, not to ascend the throne at Ithamon (although one probably leads to the other). So Davien's main goal is to protect the Paravians. He's already established that as his first and foremost, with or without the Drake's "oath." Arithon, then, as Davien's tool, is probably meant to bring back the Paravians (as well as set the Fellowship free? Hmmm.)
All this other stuff, the necromancers and etc, are obstancles, hurdles on the path to success. And to forge his character too, I suppose.
I wonder if Davien's aware of the Black Rose Prophecy. I find it amusing that Davien's trying to destroy the monarchy, yet the way Arithon's going, it seems far more likely that the Prophecy will be fulfilled and Davien will return to the Fellowship.
The words sound to me not as if Davien "wins" but rather he "sees reason" and reunites with the rest of his colleges.
Davien's pretty tough on Arithon. Since he sees him as a method of achieving his own goals, Davien simply arms him with the necessary knowledge required to do so and then sends the poor boy in. Oh, I love this passage:
Althain's Warden regarded his ringless, thin hands. 'To spare Arithon.'
'For what?' Davien's stinging mockery came back, untamed. 'Pray tell, Calum Kincaid, for what? A future that brings us mankind's execution? Armageddon, again, because the drakes chose us for the staggering task of lifting their legacy of remorse?'
We've already established that Davien hates the limitation placed upon him by the drakes. Even without the cage I believe he would still fulfil his obligation but the fact that there isn't any free choice in this irritates him.
It's kinda funny how the Law of Major Balance means that the Fellowship is not allowed to mess around with humanity directly, but yet the fact that mankind is under Fellowship guardianship sorta defeats the purpose, ne? But I assume the price of them staying is that loss of freedom, so there's the balance. I guess that's also why Davien's using Arithon to get his means across, since he still has to obey the Law.
I've always wondered, do the Fellowship long for death?
– end rant
Did that make any sense? I wrote it out to to clear my whirling mind, really.
originally posted by Beth
I had part of this thought before we met Davien and I have not read TK, but is it possible that Davien is molding Arithon to be his successor. The Black Rose Prophecy only says the fellowship will be returned to 7. It doesn't say who the 7 will be.
And yes, Arithon can accept his kingship, have an heir and then become a Mage or the Masterbard. There is nothing that says once he ensures the next generation that he can't go his own way. Because at the very least I assume at some point he needs to find the next Masterbard as well.
Are we still in the <100 years of the half-brothers time on Athera. I am surprised that more time has not been passed. I was assuming that most of this war would take at least 400 yrs given their extra 500 years of life. (Have to give them some time for happiness to live out a full life 
) So does this mean that the last two arcs will jump in time? Anyone have ideas after reading TK? I am just assuming SF will start with a similar time as TK.
Beth
originally posted by daymaster
My impression was that Davien did start the uprising, as he says to prevent something from happening - I'm assuming he meant the Mistwraith but it could be something bigger. I know that he didn't like the Compact but I don't know how he would imagine that the uprising would have broken the Compact.
We are still in the first 100 years of their life. By my count, at the end of PG we were only at 30 years after Curse of the Mistwraith began.
I'm assuming there could be another jump in time as we had before.
originally posted by Trys
quote:Not 'returned'… 'restored'. The glossary uses the term reunity. I'd say it's a safe assumption that it's the original 7.returned to 7. It doesn't say who the 7 will be.
originally posted by fhcbandmom
Trys - we discussed that once before (a long time ago!) and I still disagree with you. I interpret the restoration as a restoration to a fellowship of 7 in number - not necessarily the original seven. My basis for this? The scene way back in CoTM, after the attack by the wraiths at Ithamon, when Dakar sees Arithon and Asandir with the same "aura" (I can't rmember the exact phrasing). Since then, I believe it is Arithon's fate to become a full fledged Fellowship member. It will be fun to keep reading to find out which one of us is correct!
originally posted by Emilie
*peeking in again*
I thought Arithon can't become a full fledged member of the F7 because there are no drakes to bind him. That's why Verrain is not a member. At least that's how I understood it. *shrug*
originally posted by Beth
I always thought Verrain and Dakar were spellbinders because they 'lacked' as much 'power' as the F7. At this point I'm not even sure Traithe has as much power as Dakar and Verrain. He has the mastery but no power. I don't think the original F7 could be returned without something becoming of Traithe. And there is no telling what Davien has become, but from what people's opinions have been, I really wouldn't see him returning to a 'fellowship'. I think he has outgrown/become weary of having to work with others.
Beth
originally posted by Hannah
I think Emilie is on the right track. Wouldn't, technically, you have to swear a Drake oath to become one of the F7. I doubt they probably have a set of "rules" to join their "club", and there's no stopping anyone from rising to being equal in power, but not an official member. Would they even welcome a new member to have to deal with all the crap they have to deal with, and the responsibility, and the executioner's sword hanging over their heads?
Arithon could be come just as great as they (if that's what you believe–I don't know that he could be in his lifespan), but not actually join.
I don't think Verrain is at the level to be a sorcerer though. Otherwise, he'd have to be used a lot more than he is right now, tied to Mirthlvain by responsibility or not.
originally posted by Auna
Janny already answered that question on this board elsewhere - you need the drakes binding to make a fellowship member. Without that, you just have spellbinders.
I also recall her stating that fellowship members are extremely powerful beings. So, Arithon is very talented for a human, but wouldn't be able to hold a candle to a fellowship member. That's the gist I got.
originally posted by Hannah
Hm, maybe that's why I was thinking that Auna. Vague stirrings of remembrances of something Janny had said.
originally posted by max
So, does Davien have a superiority thing going on? Does he feel he has the right to judge humanity because he is a superior being?
originally posted by Izzy
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I differential the drakes influence on the F7 members by two things. 1) The "initiate" magic that the 7 were endowed with. 2) The "binding" that the drakes laid on them. I don't know which came first, or if they occured at the same time. There are several references in the books to their power and binding being two different things.
Also, somewhere in TK, someone (I think Dakar) looks at Arithon and notes that his power is becoming visible in some external way (I can't remember the quote, and my wife has the book), which is something that Dakar had only previously seen from a Fellowship sorcerer. So perhaps the things that Davien is doing is equivalent to the original F7 receiving the drakes "initiate" magic WITHOUT the limitations of the drake binding.
Regards,
CJ
(Message edited by admin on December 15, 2004)
originally posted by Leonie
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"So, does Davien have a superiority thing going on? Does he feel he has the right to judge humanity because he is a superior being?"
I think that Davien simply did not want humanity to settle on Athera when they arrived. I think he has a more wide ranging forward thinking (seer???) bent than the others. He may have forseen the problems arising. I also think that he may wish the Paravians to survive even more than the others do. I don't think he feels "superior" although I may be wrong here, but my take on this is that his split with the rest of the F7 was seeded around the time humanity arrived. In making the gates, he provided other methods of leaving for humanity to take advantage of. Maybe he simply has a hard time of forgive and forget with the rest of the F7. Maybe they realise he was right and they were wrong and they haven't sorted that out yet either.
Edited to add SPOILER header:
(Message edited by admin on December 15, 2004)