Ciladis, Davien and the Black Rose

originally posted by Annette

Spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers…

Actually I forgot a few things, before Davien can get what he wants those horrors down in Mirthlvain's swamp have to be transmuted/freed as well. For some reason I always thought Janny was priming us for an encounter between Arithon and some cierlan-ankeshed venom, we were always told how painful it was, but Janny has not given us a victim yet. I thought one of Morriels visions where Arithon was imprisoned might have taken place in Meth Isle's bleak dungeon, but that seems not to have worked out. Yet Janny made sure we knew there was a dungeon at Meth Isle and that new breeds of dangerous mutations were still sometimes kept imprisoned at Meth Isle. Janny usually seems to have a reason for including such details. Still have my suspicions that Arithon might come to a closer understanding of Meth snakes in a painful way.

Also there is the Khadrim, the Fellowship seem to have been satisfied just locking them up in the Sorcerer's preserve, but they are still a danger. Only the offspring of the Methuri were mentioned as the last threat to be cleared before humanity arrived on Athera though, so presumably they are the last of the drake spawn that needs to be cleared.

I think Arithon would like to keep the iyats, they seem very useful, his very own little task force of helpers.

And of course necromancy, Koriani and Lysaer and his fanatical followers are the human problems that are now a threat to Athera's future. The Fellowship does not seem to be doing very well at solving those problems either. We already know Arithon is set to save Lysaer, Morriel seems to have thought Arithon is going to be the cause of her downfall, and Arithon already dealt with one lot of necromancers, maybe he ends up with the rest of them to deal with as well. After all are they not problems caused by mortals, so maybe a mortal has to come up with the solution as well. Either Arithon or Lysaer seem to be the only mortals likely to take on necromancers, unless Dakar is volunteering to be next.

For Davien to rejoin the fellowship, all those threats would likely have to be dealt with first. No one is likely to be appearing to offer Arithon any alternatives to the compact while there are still conflicts that threaten Athera and her mysteries. So it would seem Janny is going to be busy if we are to get a conclusion to the arc in the next book. I do not think she would leave any of these problems to run into Song of the Mysteries.

originally posted by William Barnes

The way the Blackrose prophesy is worded makes me wonder if the fellowship being restored to seven involves Davien at all. Maybe another is destined to take his place.

originally posted by Annette

Davien cannot be replaced by anyone else. I am sure Janny gave an answer some where on why there can be no new Fellowship Sorcerers, but cannot find it so will give my interpretation. But you can ask Janny directly in a post and she will explain why better.

The Fellowship of seven were a Fellowship before they were brought to Athera, their history and how they feel about that is what made them a fellowship and cannot be replicated. It was that perception of themselves after what happened in the past that drew them to the summons sent by the dragons who dreamed them into Athera.

The power the dragons bestowed on them is not transferable, nor are the responsibilities they freely accepted. They accepted redemption from the Paravians and were renamed, the colours they wear are an indication of who they are, and they are a matched set. All 7 are needed.

Later when Humanity arrived, they helped draw up the compact and accepted responsibility for it.

None of that history, experience, power, binding or oversight of the compact can be transferred to any one else so there will never be any new members of the Fellowship. There will never be more than 7 members of the Fellowship and at full strength it will always be the same 7.

So Davien is eventually going to bow to the Law of the Major Balance and agree to rejoin. Ciladis will eventually awake, and Traithe will be restored.

Probably all in the next book.

originally posted by Annette

Something I have always wondered about that prophecy, the future appearance of the black rose is connected with Arithon. Being willing to embrace kingship does not necessarily mean he will be crowned, twice he has volunteered so far and twice something prevented it. Three seems to be the magical number.

How many of Athera's royals got planted in a rose garden when sanctioned? Was it just the s'Ffalenn Prince's, or did all royals get planted for their attunement to earth. Were there roses in that location before Etarra was built? The site seems of some significance, and Etarra has not been there all the time. And why would this black rose growing wild mean anything to Davien?

Maybe the black rose growing wild on Daon Ramon, is also symbolic of Arithon's heirs being free, to be what ever they want to be? Arithon would be the last s'Ffalenn prince?

originally posted by Hunter

"So Davien is eventually going to bow to the Law of the Major Balance and agree to rejoin. Ciladis will eventually awake, and Traithe will be restored.

Probably all in the next book."

Aaah, only if was all so easy as that…!!! Davien agreeing to rejoin the Fellowship is a dangerous assumption. The exact wording "neither shall the Fellowship be restored to Seven" - given the personalities, it is just as likely that Asander, Sethvir and co. will need to concede that Davien was right in the first place and they rejoin him than the other way around.

Traithe restored would intimate there is a way to unscramble the Mistwraith omelette and redeem the lost souls.

originally posted by Annette

Well Arithon has been practicing his naming and redeeming of lost souls, he just needs to gain the ability to do a multitude all at once. He managed to take out all the Gray Kralovir as one, maybe there is a way the Mistwraith entities are joined that is similar?

It is the Fellowship of Seven, whether 6 agree Davien's plan worked, or whether Davien agrees he should rejoin the other 6, still ends up seven.

Davien did not build all those strange, trials and wonders on a whim, and Arithon claiming kingship of Rathain is not his plan. How could the Fellowship be released from the peril of the compact, Athera's Mysteries be protected, and humanity actually survive? Davien has a plan, he was never really happy with the compact and the risks it entailed the alternate plan seems to depend on Arithon. And while these tempering experiences might eventually allow Arithon the wish of his heart, I am doubtful Davien is doing it for just that.

That stair on Rockfell Peak was one of Davien's creations, as was the shaft used to imprison the Mistwraith, now who do you suppose is going to be taking on that trial? Why on earth would Arithon even attempt it and risk letting the Mistwraith free?

originally posted by Clansman

I don't think Davien ever deviated from the Law of the Major Balance. In fact, that remains a point of unity between him and the rest of the Fellowship. Davien, however, disliked the Compact from its outset, seeing it as inherently unstable (that it lasted for several thousand years before it was dismantled may belie that belief, however…). It was his eventual upset of the Compact/Charter, based in his own understanding/interpretation of the meaning of the Law of the Major Balance, that the Compact/Charter was challenged.

Anyone who assumes that the Five Kingdoms will be restored has not been paying attention. Janny delights in turning our assumptions on their heads, and we will have that "d'oh!" moment when the Big Secret is revealed, and our collective hand-slap to our foreheads will be heard around the world. The solution to Athera's problems will likely have been lying in front of us for the better part of the last two decades, and all of us will have failed to see it.

I have long since given up on speculating, as I am always wrong. It was fun, though.

originally posted by Annette

Well the compact has lasted 5923 years at last count and although a bit on the wobbly side is still standing. If Havish falls, it would not be the first time all 5 kingdoms were without a Fellowship crowned king.

I would think Lysaer's work in eventually combining all the town born under his rule goes a fair way towards Paravia becoming one kingdom.

Arithon seems to be working on having ties to the clans in all 5 kingdoms, although he seems to prefer ties of friendship and brotherhood, rather than oath sworn allegiance.

So combine the two groups together and 5 kingdoms might yet become one. The clans would never follow Lysaer, the townborn would not follow Arithon. Daliana and any children she has with Lysaer might do for both groups. We will have to wait and see.

originally posted by Julie

Arithon's acceptance of kingship will give him a different channel to the mysteries (at least in Rathain). Another tool with which to unravel the Mistwraith whether or not charter law regarding succession to the thrones is restored.

Annette- why do you assume Daliana and Lysaer will wed?

originally posted by Annette

You think Lysaer could love Daliana, and not want to make her his queen? He will marry and probably go off and build some new city some where. A nice central location, probably in the heart of Rathain.

Lysaer seems to like building things when happy, and it has been a long time since he was happy.

And Arithon's attitude to his crowning has not changed last we saw him. He remembers how he was betrayed and sold out, his attitude towards kingship (and probably Asandir) is not going to improve. We caught a bit of that in one of the early peeks at Destiny's Conflict. I should think Arithon would want peace before he was willing to embrace kingship.

originally posted by Julie


Daliana is oath sworn to the land, becoming queen to an unsanctioned king would be in violation of the charter she swore to uphold. Now IF Lysaer is redeemed, forgiven by the paravians, and the mistwraith conquered, I can see that path open to them.
Maybe Janny can clarify this- have there been other royal/caithdein romantic unions besides the one from which Dari was made?
Lysaer's character is not stagnant however much he is a product of his upbringing and geas infected. He did not build Avenor because he was happy- he firmly believed in his mission and right to rule. As far as Rathain, it sounds like he built a stable political environment in which both towns and clans prospered during his 250 years as Lord Mayor of Etarra. Daliana may steer him back there if the True Sect has not taken over.
I like to think that there will be clandestine channels open between the Caithdien of Tysan and Daliana. Lysaer needs different allies to withstand the True Sect and the Fellowship has already taken a more active role in helping Daliana than they did with Sulfen Evand.

Arithon was already willing to assume the kingship if it would bring peace. In the snippet we saw, Arithon still did not have a good deal of his memories. He may change his mind given the full range of information.