originally posted by Nora
Re-reading in Peril's Gate, it's interesting to see how SE taking up the caithdein's oath is hinted at/foreshadowed. He has the encounter with the centaur, and it's specifically mentioned that both Jieret and SE are watching Lysaer during that encounter, and understand him then. The offense to SE's honesty of Lysaer's plans (when Morriel's conspiracy breaks) and the shock of everyone killed on Daon Ramon all build up. [Note how SE has changed there; early in Grand Conspiracy, he'd be happy to leave the tree-bound men asleep for the sake of the Light. Late in Peril's Gate, he's more concerned about the men and what they're being led into than the cause of the Light.]
And given everything that happens in TK, and what he sees, I think (and hope) that Sulfin realizes just what his oath means, and what it is given too. He and Lysaer are finally, in a sense, driven to disparity by the end of the book. I wonder what his reaction to Raiett's death will be, and which loyalty he will be sacrificed? How close of tabs is the Fellowship keeping on him?
originally posted by Blue
Spoilers just in case!
I wonder what his reaction to Raiett's death will be, and which loyalty he will be sacrificed? How close of tabs is the Fellowship keeping on him?
Two very good questions, Nora. I wonder if SE would go so far as to contact the clansmen on his own recognizance, and warn them of the firestorm to come - in SF? I also wonder if he will ever encounter Arithon, and what the two of them will make of one another.
originally posted by Nora
Potential spoilers!
As SE's oath is to the land of Tysan and the weal of its people, he may well end up doing something drastic to try to save the soldiers in his command (and thus his responsibility) from a bloody battle that he knows is about nuthin' good. SE has seen the curse effects up close and personal, and has developed enough of a backbone to argue against Lysaer's kind of strategic war. Well, one can hope, after all.
And Arithon is at Sanpashir and SE is heading that way; I'm very excited to see what will happen with SE returning the knife, as he's hardly a popular figure amongst any kind of clansmen…
originally posted by Andy
Potential SPOILERS.
I just re-read Sulfin's visit to Althain and his conversation with Asandir. It is clear that Sulfin will take a caithdein's oath and that oath is to the land, and enforceable by the his true self as well as the Fellowship. Asandir also makes it clear that his caithdein's oath will not supplant Maenol as caithdein of Tysan. But what is also clear from their conversation is that Sulfin's caithdein oath will irrevocably tie him to Lysaer, and Asandir attempts to dissuade him from this, as Lysaer has been cast out of the protection of the Compact, is under the curse of the Mistwraith, and has attracted the perilous interest of necromancers. So while Lysaer is obviously not a sanctioned prince or king, Sulfin willl apparently play the part of Lysaer's caithdein–at least for Lysaer's benefit. Asandir even makes the point in a way that Sulfin will be able to perhaps protect Lysaer from the necromancers where the Fellowship could not due to their sparse resources or his forfeited right to ask for intercession. Maybe he just swore a caithdein's oath to the land but has not become a caithdein.
Aside: In explaining Sulfin's heritage, Asandir explains that his ancestor's split into three lines: (1) Maenol's; (2) his own Westwood/Hanshire; and (3) some Erdani prince who was inopportune or misbehaved. To whom does the third line pertain?
Janny – I'm asking – can a kingdom have more than one caithdein at the same time? Can a uncrowned and nonsanctioned prince have a caithdein? I suspect we're bordering on RAFO-land, but any light you can shed would be appreciated.
Andy
originally posted by Ryan Gohl
Very well put Andy. I couldn't have stated it better.
originally posted by Hellcat
I think the 3rd branch that forfitted its heratige was the gentleman (whose name I've forgotten) who captured Arithon in CoTM and dangled him over a chasm head down. Though IIRC his crime was not what he did to Arithon but the fact that he intended to carry out a raid for the sake of it rather than for reasons of survival.
Will have to re-read.
Hellcat
originally posted by Nora
Potential spoilers…
I was taking another look at the scene with Sulfin and Lysaer in the bathtub, and I noted how often it was emphasized that anyone else would shut up, but a man bound to the cause of the land kept pressing things. Sulfin Evend's experience at Avenor, coming into contact with Sethvir and helping to purge the necromancers–I think that was a really big thing for his character. [Also note the divergent paths of Lysaer and SE in Althain Tower–Lysaer is not moved by the Paravian statuary, but SE weeps and looses his composure. SE is able to be sensitive in ways that Lysaer has cut himself off from.]
A caithdein wears black, we know–because, I think, a caithdein is bound in responsibility to the land (and thus the F7 and the Paravians) more deeply than to the royal office or occupant itself. A king's oath is to the kingdom, but the caithdein also has a direct connection of sorts, I think. When SE is in Hanshire, he says that his oath is to the land and the weal of the people, and that Lysaer's cause is the same. But it's obvious that he *knows* those two things are diverging, and he moves into being a direct goad to Lysaer's ambitions.
It was fascinating to see how the F7 could act through a caithdein, with the oath and due permission, to enact powerful intervention.
Can we find out what exactly the oath a caithdein swears is, or is that confidential? 
Andy – You Asked.
POTENTIAL TK SPOILERS!!! CAUTION
There cannot be two caithdein, precisely. Sulfin Evend's state of affaris is a shattering precident.
Maenol is sanctioned caithdein for Tysan - that means, by Tysan's old charter law, he may speak for crown justice in the absence of the king or sanctioned crown prince. ONLY MAENOL can stand in for this responsibility.
Sulfin Evend swore the caithdein's oath - which is to the weal of the land - and holds the people subject to the land's prosperity. He swore this oath, which enables him the standing to ask for Fellowship intercession - he can ask for help as a caithdein might, if the land and the people who are in harmony with the terms of the compact are jeopardized. And legit, the Fellowship can answer.
This allows the Sorcerers, also, the opening to temper what happens to Lysaer - without that opening, the horrid little brush with necromancy would have had little opening at all - if not none, for Lysaer's survival… a Fellowship intercession could NOT have salvaged his life, while he was caught "under the influence."
The Fellowship agrees to stand on Sulfin Evend's oath in order to temper the impact of Lysaer, under the curse. It does NOT give Sulfin Evend any power to claim authority under Tysan's crown charter, and it certainly does NOT elevate Lysaer's status to crown heir in any shape or form. He would not, either, wear black, which signifies "shadow behind the throne" or perform the office of royal conscience for even a potential s'Ilessid heir.
Maenol's lineage is the legit Caithdein for the realm. No way Sulfin Evend would supplant him.
originally posted by Nora
Possible TK spoilers!
Ooh, new information–that clears things up, wow and thanks. It makes sense that there never would have been a situation like this before, with such a powerful rogue agent wreaking havoc as a ruler. I'm guessing that the oath and related issues will come into play next book, and it's probably things that would be spoily.
This is the first inroad the Fellowship has had with someone near to Lysaer in some time, isn't it?
originally posted by Andy
quote:I think the 3rd branch that forfitted its heratige was the gentleman (whose name I've forgotten) who captured Arithon in CoTM and dangled him over a chasm head down. Though IIRC his crime was not what he did to Arithon but the fact that he intended to carry out a raid for the sake of it rather than for reasons of survival.
Ah yes, I remember now. I don't recall his name either, but wasn't his uncle Lord Tashan or something like that. Basically, he planned to raid the next non-clan travellers who came through out of malice, Arithon "used" him to force Asandir to reveal Lysaer's s'Illesid ancestory, and then Asandir chastised Arithon afterwards, explaining that the unintended consequence of Arithon's rash action was that the would-be raider would suffer punishment at Maenolle's hand which would potentially end a irreplacable clan lineage/descent. Does this mean he was killed as punishment? If not, I wonder if we'll ever see that guy again.
originally posted by Blue
The name of the third s'Gannley branch heir was Grithen, who was the Earl of Erdane. Lord Tashan had rebuked him BEFORE the raid that captured Arithon, chewing him out for being rash. It was after the raid that Lady Maenalle, Maenol's predecessor [and namesake?] formally disinherited him from his position. He had violated clan tradition [and charter law?] in his actions, and the offense was sufficiently bad enough for him to lose everything.
If Grithen had children, would they inherit the Erdane title, or is that branch line of s'Gannley out of luck?
originally posted by Dorothy
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the line ended with him but I'd have to look it up-I remember thinking it a bit harsh that his children (if he had any) would have to bear their father's disgrace. Or maybe he wouldn't be allowed to marry as a consequence of his actions.
originally posted by neil
Just rereading the sulfin / Asandir scene in TK…
F7 are obliged to ward Althain.
Presumably there are are artifacts of value (time/work) that would be better not to have lost/destroyed)
But what/who are they defending against? The wards are "exotic" and surely over the top to stop koriani/necromancers/any other "players" in the story so far…so who else? Meeting any new factions at the end of the 3rd arc or later seems unlikely but then we don't know about the north/east gates yet either.
The drakes are off the scene so far but presumably they have not just ceased to exist? And they appear to have been on the paravians' "side".
In the "summary intro" in TK there is mention of the F7 protecting (or something) due to obligations from the paravians - this did not seem to "sit" with just grimwards - which I would assume to be static - maybe the referral was to rockfell beasties…
originally posted by Timothy
Most likely there will be spoilers!
As I was re-reading the book, I was contemplating about the S'Gannley family. As we know from Traitor's knot, this was the Fellowship's first choice for the ruling line of Tysan. If the woman… I can't remember her name… had agreed, what would have been their Geas?
My theory is that it most likely would not be Justice, yet it would have to be similar to Justice. What would be "superior" to Justice? Truth! As Dakar said in COTMW, Lysaer is driven to look for Justice even when none can be found; however, I think it is possible to find the truth in any situation.
My reasons for thinking this was even though in the beginning Sulfin Evend allowed himself to be blinded by Lysaer's charisma, but in this book especially you can see his drive to find the truth. Of course he does not have a geas to encourage that trait, but that tendency is still evident in that line.
By the way, is the Biedar tribe in Sanpashir? If so, does that mean that Arithon and Sulfin Evend are going to run into each other? Wouldn't THAT be exciting.
So… am I off my rocker? Or am I on to something?
originally posted by juliana
No you are not off your rocker- Asandir told Sulfin Evend that the S'Ganley gift is "sight", not of the future but of the truth- to be able to see things, people as they really are. Which is why throughout the book he sees Lysaer's light without substance when compared to that of the Fellowship or Ath's adepts. In other words not divine given.
I assume that Arithon and SE will meet- he is already changing his view on the whole light/shadow conflict. Supposedly his gift would allow him to see Arithon as he really is, not a murdering, evil being. The seeress told him that a time will come when he must decide where his loyalties really lie.
originally posted by Hunter
Arithon has been judged by many based on both his actions *and* what others have said. The s'Brydions changed side when they met him, Talith's fate was sealed when she met Arithon and learnt to judged for herself, Lirenda's doom was sealed when she met him and it will be interesting to see what Sulfin Evend does should he meet with Arithon - which I am also expecting he will… Sulfin Evend is perhaps the only of Lysaer's current followers whom will have the openness of mind to see Arithon for what he is, not what they've been told…
originally posted by neil
Not sure, but Sulfin Evend already has enough information to understand the real issues and he has additional perception to see for himself that the clans and F7 have a point regarding protecting Athera.
He's already prepared to accept F7 business as something out of Lysaer's (and presumably his too) depth, has seen the curse at work first hand, appreciated the nastiness of necromancy first hand.
He still blames Arithon for the grimward? Asandir has already disputed this. Arithon could presumably find a way to pursuade SE if ever they met.
I forget what Enithen Tuer said but with divided loyalties, the oath (presumably to protect the land?) sworn may force his hand…and ultimately his undoing?
…although Jeynsa *has* drawn the wrong conclusions about Arithon(If she falls into Alliance hand this won;t help, I would guess clan would "set her straight"?).
originally posted by juliana
Jeynsa is still a teenager who is fiercely mourning her father. She will blame Arithon for Jieret's death until she matures a bit more. THe travels she has embarked on presumably will help.
Not sure that SE still sees his experience with the grimward in the same light. His loyalty still lies with Lysaer the man but not neccessarily the cause- very similar to Talith.
I hope Janny has something really positive in store for him. In many ways he defies town upbrining and can be a link between town and clan.
originally posted by Paul Hammond
"By the way, is the Biedar tribe in Sanpashir? If so, does that mean that Arithon and Sulfin Evend are going to run into each other? Wouldn't THAT be exciting."
Yes - it's incredibly convenient that Sulfin is taking that knife back to Sanpashir, and the final scene of the book is Arithon's reconstituted body appearing in the focus circle… at Sanpashir.
They're either going to meet, or the tribespeople's different view is going to continue Sulfin's education.